Guns?

[Jonnson]

So, I am a fairly new player, and finally got around to messing with the guns. I took some time to stock up on them and get some ammo. First thing I notice is the weight. I also notice it takes very little time to level up aim and reload. The weight just seems off. My guy has pretty high strength, 8/10. With a shotgun and a few rounds, he is maxed out. If he carries anything more he is encumbered (I mean, plus his clothes and tools). Now, I just wanna parallel this to food. I am having to eat 8000 plus calories a day to pay for my activities. Constantly eating. So, I can rationalize this by picturing my guy as a giant athlete (he also has maxed fitness), like the "Rock." I mean, he has to put down massive calories in order to maintain his weight. It is a constant struggle not to widdle away into nothing. Apparently, his clothing is so heavy he can barely carry some basic tools and a shotgun.

So, in real life, I am an avid camper/hiker. I carry a fully loaded backpack, several tools, including fishing gear, and a shotgun. I consume about 3000 calories a day, at 200 lbs.

This character of mine, at 8000 calories cant carry what I carry on a normal hike.

Now, encumbrance is not just about weight, but I am in no way having difficulty moving with the weight I carry, although I do have restricted movement due to the backpack straps on my arms, and the backpack getting caught sometimes in bushes and branches, but that's in the woods, not on a street.

Understand that I carry a full backpack (about 50 lbs) when I hike. The backpack my character has is empty. The point of my argument, or complaint here being that once a gun is equipped one can longer loot anything w/o encumbering themselves, or leaving home naked, or with no tools...with almost max strength.

I realize a lot of the responses I will get here will be from fat, out of shape video game players, or skinny to the bone vegans, but understand, at this calorie intake and activity we are not talking about what you can carry, but what Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson can carry.

My 8000 calorie a day beast, with 10/10 fitness and 8/10 strength should be able to carry his backpack full of loot before becoming encumbered.

His clothes, a tool belt with a hammer and axe, and a full backpack (with gear or loot). A box of shotgun shells, for instance, can go in the thigh pocket of a pair of cammies, unnoticed, and he is holding his gun.

Something is off here. Either the calories consumed per activity are wrong, or the weight you can carry vs your strength/fitness is wrong. I mean, terribly wrong. Heh, a typical 180 lb 2500 calorie, 18 yr old soldier can carry this all day while at war. Just take a look at your tv screen.

[Bwixie]

i never struggled to carry firearms and my other loot in this game when over the default strength, what exactly do you have?

you have to consider also inventory weight is reduced by an item being equipped or inside an equipped container, carrying everything in the base inventory is not viable.

i typically have only a few essentials in quick access and everything else in a bag.

[mistermayhem85]

barely played but when you attach the weapon to your back for example doesnt it lower the weight?

[Unknown Zom]

Well I typed out a lot but then steam closed on me and erased it all so I'll try to type what I remember.

10 strength gives me 20 player inventory 17 with hunger debuff, let's me go around with some heavier armor and a 3/4 full backpack before it starts to say i'm heavy.

You can think of the items as a weight/encumbrance score and not actually Lb/Kg equivalent like if you cut a branch into a spear it nearly doubles in weight, doesn't explain why Fridge/TV weigh the same (at 10) and a smaller generator is 40 but that's game balance since it's still a game.

Then organizer trait, turns a big backpack from 27 to 35, in multiplayer you can hand an over stuffed backpack to another player just fine they just can't put items back in till they empty it down to 27 and this adds back to the encumbrance score and not actually weight, it's more like HOW good the character can Tetris items inside an inventory. (Kinda funny to think about being naked holding 2 fridges and fighting zombies unencumbered)

Calorie consumed per activity I've tested with a series of monitoring mods and debug mode.
55 Calories burn no matter what every game hour
400 Calories burn every hour of straight running (will add up to 455 an hour in gameplay)
1.5 Calories burn every combat action (never tested guns but I doubt it would also)
Sprinting/standing/sitting burn the same 55 an hour (or 0 for clarity)
Have not tested other activities to see if they burn more like chopping trees,fishing etc.

Another mechanic I learned from calories is the tank works like this.
At 0 or lower you get the "v" down chevron and lose weight (Caps at -2200)
At 0 and higher you stay the same weight
At 70 weight and 1200+ calories you get the "^" chevron and gain weight (will change depending on weight so check the wiki to calculate but I think at 80 is 1600 in the tank but I could be wrong, caps at 3700)

This list of things is a lot smaller but probably not everything you are asking about
I'll edit this if I have to with more info/when I have time to test more stuff.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Bwixie (She/Her):

i never struggled to carry firearms and my other loot in this game when over the default strength, what exactly do you have?

you have to consider also inventory weight is reduced by an item being equipped or inside an equipped container, carrying everything in the base inventory is not viable.

i typically have only a few essentials in quick access and everything else in a bag.

I said 8/10 strength, several times.

The army backpack has a weight reduction of 80%, that's what I am using.

I am wearing full clothing, a tool belt, and a backpack, I am carrying a shotgun, it has a strap attached (reduced weight). The tool belt has a hammer and an ax in its slots (reduced weight) and I carry a crowbar on my back (reduced weight). There is a saw, and a screwdriver in the backpack (reduced weight). And I carry a small bottle of water in my main inventory (orange soda bottle), along with a pencil, an eraser and 1 bottle of vitamins. I would consider the main inventory being a pocket and a canteen.

That has me at weight 15.34, my max being 15. I am encumbered before I walk out the door.

Again, I carry more than that on a hiking trip. In RL, I have every pocket filled with things like fishing line, tackle, flint, waterstone, lighter, fish hooks, and string. I'd have the backpack full with food, more water, a flashlight, rounds, a cooking kit, change of clothes, towel, and more (spade, axe, hammer). I'd have a knife in my boot, a machete on my hip. A canteen on my other hip. A sleeping bag above the backpack, a blanket, and a fracking tent rolled up. My shotgun is usually over my shoulder, and I walk with some sort of cane, usually a stick I find on the ground, that sizes right for moving things out of my way, checking for solid footing, or leaning on. I hike, in the smokey mountains for 8-10 hours before breaking for camp, and I am the small fry in my group. The one who always calls for break, and then gets told to, "carry on," because I am 5'11, and those mofos are 6'5 and dont realize that one of their steps equals 2 of mine. David, my best friend, has gotten mad at me and took my pack, and carried it in his hands ontop of his own gear, which is almost 80lbs, and treks mumbling curses at me, while leaving me in the dust, and he consumes maybe 4000 calories, and is around 220 lbs.

My character in this game consumes 8000 calories while losing weight. And at a max fitness 10/10, and 8/10 strength, I am comparing him to Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson, who is 7 foot, 320 lbs and consumes, 8-10k calories a day.

My backpack is empty! Well, it has a screwdriver in it....

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Unknown Zom:

Well I typed out a lot but then steam closed on me and erased it all so I'll try to type what I remember.

10 strength gives me 20 player inventory 17 with hunger debuff, let's me go around with some heavier armor and a 3/4 full backpack before it starts to say i'm heavy.

You can think of the items as a weight/encumbrance score and not actually Lb/Kg equivalent like if you cut a branch into a spear it nearly doubles in weight, doesn't explain why Fridge/TV weigh the same (at 10) and a smaller generator is 40 but that's game balance since it's still a game.

Then organizer trait, turns a big backpack from 27 to 35, in multiplayer you can hand an over stuffed backpack to another player just fine they just can't put items back in till they empty it down to 27 and this adds back to the encumbrance score and not actually weight, it's more like HOW good the character can Tetris items inside an inventory. (Kinda funny to think about being naked holding 2 fridges and fighting zombies unencumbered)

Calorie consumed per activity I've tested with a series of monitoring mods and debug mode.
55 Calories burn no matter what every game hour
400 Calories burn every hour of straight running (will add up to 455 an hour in gameplay)
1.5 Calories burn every combat action (never tested guns but I doubt it would also)
Sprinting/standing/sitting burn the same 55 an hour (or 0 for clarity)
Have not tested other activities to see if they burn more like chopping trees,fishing etc.

Another mechanic I learned from calories is the tank works like this.
At 0 or lower you get the "v" down chevron and lose weight (Caps at -2200)
At 0 and higher you stay the same weight
At 70 weight and 1200+ calories you get the "^" chevron and gain weight (will change depending on weight so check the wiki to calculate but I think at 80 is 1600 in the tank but I could be wrong, caps at 3700)

This list of things is a lot smaller but probably not everything you are asking about
I'll edit this if I have to with more info/when I have time to test more stuff.

My understanding is that those are slots in the backpack, you are increasing the amount of slots from 27 to 35 via the trait, and this has nothing to do with the weight you can carry. Your max weight being 20. The pack is reducing the weight of items you put it in, but that still just adds to what you can carry overall.

Remember there is no armor in this game, at least, if there is I have not found any at all. Its clothes we are wearing. Socks, t-shirt, long johns, etc. This entire pile of clothes weighs maybe 5 lbs, its made out of cotton and leather. I can't consider regular clothing encumbersome at all. The bullet proof vest, yes. It has iron plates in it. But I am not using one.

I will say that at max 10/10 strength having 20 as carrying capacity would change things. I did not know that it would go that much higher. But I am nowhere near max human strength, and nowhere near consuming 8k+ calories and I can carry more than my guy who does have very high strength at 8-10.

Now, if I'm to accept that the difference between 8 and 10 is that steep, then I'd expect the amount of calories I need to consume to be quite smaller. I am putting down 1000 protein a day, as well here. I'm eating 6 rabbits for christs sake. 6 whole cabbages, 6 potatoes, 2 bags of chips, mac and cheese, blocks of cheese, bottles of honey, while losing weight. Even Jenner did not consume this and he was the world champion cyclist. If anyone had 10/10 fitness it would have been him.

Some thing is wrong with the calorie consumption calculations.

[Jonnson]

Guys theres nothing in the backpack yet, thats the point. He is encumbered wearing basic gear BEFORE he even begins to loot. This would make sense if he were a tiny little girl. But at 8 grand calories a day.....he is one of the biggest men on earth.

[Jonnson]

Its not the guns weight, its that once I added the gun to my repertoire, I realized the weight was off and that led me to the calories. If we are going to keep these calorie calculations then the weight allowances for all levels needs to go up. If to keep these weight allowances then the calorie intake needs to go down.

At 10/10 fitness and 8/10 strength, consuming 8k+ calories a day, my guy is an Olympic triathlete. Yes, he came in second place to "unknown zoms" 10/10 strength, at the barbell presses, but is still a major contender, and we dont know zoms fitness score. He should not be struggling to carry what a weekend camper does.

[Unknown Zom]

Get rid of the stuff on your belt, it doesn't reduce as much as the backpack, put only light stuff like a screwdriver/hammer there, or nothing at all would help, don't forget you could be wearing Huge layer of clothing and reduction from wearing isn't too great, (fire fighter being Really heavy at 4-5 weight for full set (helmet/jacket/pants/boots)

As I said before what you CARRY doesn't = calories, it's your actions, from attacking/shoving/running/climbing, anything else won't burn anything, sprinting doesn't burn anything, if you sprint/walk everywhere then your only calorie burn would be from attacking/climbing, if you counted you'd find how much you'd burn, but at a base of 55 an hour, 24x55=1,340 a day doing either nothing or walking/sprinting really far, so anything beyond this would be from shoving/attacking zombies, if you press Shift you run, and burn 400 an hour, if you press Alt you sprint, burn nothing at all just get exhausted.

Also make a screenshot of what is in your pack + body if anything you could be wearing way too many clothes (unless it's winter where you have to) but then you can't walk around with a full backpack anyway since it's way heavy, usually with a full backpack I walk around with 17 encumbrance when I ran a full strength build, only holding water bottles and my weapons in my main inventory, sometimes 18 if I really wanted more things to hold.

Also at 9 strength carry is 18, then 20 at 10, at 9 you get the strong trait which boosts carry, for some added info/tips.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by mistermayhem85:

barely played but when you attach the weapon to your back for example doesnt it lower the weight?

Yes, but if your sitting right at your max weight, and you pull that weapon out to use in battle, you just became overweight, which means you tire quickly. So, this leads to my point, if you go now on a loot run, and have to battle through a horde of zeds, you are rapidly becoming tired, which effects your accuracy, speed, and damage. Thats fine for a smaller strength and fitness, but my guy is max fitness and high strength. This wouldn't matter if things were less complicated in this game, but they are complicated with calorie consumption. If you are doing heavy battle a lot, in order to do so you need to be high fitness and strength, or your dead in seconds due to exertion. In order to maintain that level of activity you have to consume massive amounts of calories, but in consuming that amount of calories, and proteins, you would be very strong, not struggling to carry basic hiking gear down the street. The title was guns, I should just make a new post regarding calories, thats really the crux of it.

[Unknown Zom]

So add me on steam, I can then send you my discord and see if I can try and tell you what info I got much faster if you want @jonnson because I feel you have some confusion going on because the game isn't clear.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Unknown Zom:

Get rid of the stuff on your belt, it doesn't reduce as much as the backpack, put only light stuff like a screwdriver/hammer there, or nothing at all would help, don't forget you could be wearing Huge layer of clothing and reduction from wearing isn't too great, (fire fighter being Really heavy at 4-5 weight for full set (helmet/jacket/pants/boots)

As I said before what you CARRY doesn't = calories, it's your actions, from attacking/shoving/running/climbing, anything else won't burn anything, sprinting doesn't burn anything, if you sprint/walk everywhere then your only calorie burn would be from attacking/climbing, if you counted you'd find how much you'd burn, but at a base of 55 an hour, 24x55=1,340 a day doing either nothing or walking/sprinting really far, so anything beyond this would be from shoving/attacking zombies, if you press Shift you run, and burn 400 an hour, if you press Alt you sprint, burn nothing at all just get exhausted.

Also make a screenshot of what is in your pack + body if anything you could be wearing way too many clothes (unless it's winter where you have to) but then you can't walk around with a full backpack anyway since it's way heavy, usually with a full backpack I walk around with 17 encumbrance when I ran a full strength build, only holding water bottles and my weapons in my main inventory, sometimes 18 if I really wanted more things to hold.

Also at 9 strength carry is 18, then 20 at 10 for some added info/tips.

It is winter, and my clothes are as light as possible while providing max protection (I dont use the firefighter gear, its to heavy). The protection matters a lot for someone who is combat heavy. I need the stuff on my belt, thats my weapons. I AM carrying light stuff like a screwdriver and hammer.

I'm not talking about what i carry equals calories. What I am saying is that a guy who is at maximum fitness, and almost max strength, who consumes 8-10k calories a day fighting zombies, should be able to carry more than the clothes he is wearing, an empty backpack, a hammer, crowbar, hand ax, and shot gun. That in real life, i am half of this man, and can carry more while walking up hill in the mountains, all day long.

There is a problem here, its either consumption of to many calories, or the weight allowance is to low. I'm gonna say its the calorie consumption, considering that at a str of 10/10 you get a 20 allowance. That suggest to me that my guy isn't as strong as I thought, Since he is not that strong, he should not be consuming this amount of calories while losing weight. He would be gaining weight. That the calories he is burning is not due to the power behind his swings, but how many he is making. You do not burn extreme calories via aerobics.

Also, I think something is not right about the numbers you give. I have sat at base doing nothing but stand there while reading, and eating and lost weight. This suggest to me that I built a deficit with prior activities, which would have been sprinting back to base that morning from my traps.

Something just doesnt make sense, I dont know what it is, I am just guessing.
10/10 fitness
8/10 strength
8000-10.000 calories
Can't carry basic camping gear without being strained. Can't even get close to it. Backpack is empty. Just has a few tools and a shotgun.

huh???

I am 200 lbs, consume 3000 calories, am nowhere near the top 20% strongest men, and can carry what he carries plus a full backpack all day, uphill.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Unknown Zom:

So add me on steam, I can then send you my discord and see if I can try and tell you what info I got much faster if you want @jonnson because I feel you have some confusion going on because the game isn't clear.

My friend, you think I dont understand something. I'm not asking about something I dont understand, I am pointing out that the calculations are wrong, and giving examples as to why. I think the error lies in calorie consumption and weight allowance. In any other game, I wouldn't care, its a game, but this is an alpha game that is trying to immolate as close to reality as possible. I appreciate you trying to help me out with explanations, truly, I do. But it doesnt make sense, not your explanation, but the game code.

[Unknown Zom]

Did a few more Calorie tests, seems Attacking with a weapon burns 3 calories an action, and shoving burns 1.5 an action, so if you are only attacking without running on top of the daily burn of 1340 calories, you are making 2220 weapon swings, give or take some shoves, which I think is about the durability of 2 crowbars at low maintenance skill, not sure if this sounds like what your character does daily then it makes sense.

Yeah you probably did have a deficit, you can tell if you have a down chevron (which is going negative in your tank below 0)

Burned up about 70 calories 100 tiles exactly for distance scale.

So to recap what I've found how the game does calories,

Running/Vaulting/Chopping burn the same 3 calorie a second
Sitting/Sprinting/walking Burn the same 1 every 3 seconds
Every Weapon swing is 3 calories and every shove is 1.5 (knife/crowbar/axe all the same)
Both consume in an High/Active rate but for a short duration.
Crouching just follow the above (no change)
Critical hits that one shot a zombie seem to use the 1.5 rate but it doesn't happen too often in my tests so could be wrong.

-2200 to 3700 for calorie tank with 0-1600 at 80 weight being the stable range to not gain or lose weight

So were you talking about these values being unable to reflect real life? I know the body as one gets stronger and more athletic the body tries to be more efficient in energy consumption but I know practically nothing of how a real life body works in this area but how would you change the numbers to fit what you think? all the game seems to do when you do an action is speed up calorie consumption from either the low to high rates, I don't see any in-between rates just the two and these are real life seconds.

Still trying to figure out how you need 8,000-10,000 calories when I get by in-game with 2,000-3,000-ish depending on if I'm killing 200 zombies that day to clear an area for a truck load, your kill count should be insane. (I never press the run button other than to build a little bit of more space to attack from.)

Then we go to the Strength clothing part you talked about, are you saying where you think an 8/10 strength person would be?
From what I've seen in game and how traits look, strength levels 6-8 seem to be the normal laborman range, while 9+ seems to be where people actually train themselves up a bit but on the lower spectrum still but could be considered "strong" I suppose if this is what you were talking about.

And then you gotta take into account, it's how much your guy can carry/hold around while still being comfortable doing so, and it's still a game and exaggerated, you can maybe make suggestions if you think you can figure out a way to do things mechanically different that the devs are ok with doing but atm some things may just be placeholders till the future where they maybe change it so higher your passive stats are the less calories you burn but maybe have to maintain them with good food+activity or watch them degrade rapidly.

Edited some things.
But in the end it's a game to be a game.