Fix Nutrition, please

[therealjohnconnor]

Why when you satisfy hunger moodlets does your character lose weight day by day anyway? Video game logic says if you follow such in-game hints, you don't get punished for it. Realistically, if I lived on only five tomatoes a day, I would slowly starve to death - but I would also feel desperately hungry most of the time I was doing so and the moodlets currently don't accurately reflect that.

The answer is in PZ's Nutrition tables (see Wiki). As in real life, the game says you need 2200 calories/day to stay healthy i.e. sustain normal weight. And an in-game 0.2kg tomato is worth only 14 calories. You'd need to (grow and) eat 157 tomatoes/day to get in those 2200 calories, or a third of the character's own 80kg bodyweight!

Is this realistic? Standard nutrition tables say 1kg of tomato = 180 cals, approximately three times as nutritious. PZ gets this wrong consistently - a 0.3kg portion of chicken (a Wiki 'food unit') is supposedly worth 150 calories, whereas in the real world the same amount of chicken breast is worth 495 calories, over three times that.

Should PZ be realistic? It'd certainly be easier for players to work out how to feed their character by rule of thumb, assuming they don't access the Nutrition tables on the wiki - and they kind of need to, given how misleading the moodlets are. Of course, the game designers are undervaluing nutritional values to encourage people to go out and raid houses (and fight zombies) rather than hole up and farm, the latter being a boring experience for non-Stardew Valley fans. My complaint isn't with that as such, but that we don't get fair warning of this because the moodlets don't accurately reflect the state of the character's nutritional requirements.

(There's a secondary question of food being too easy to grow - you can get 12 cabbage crops in six months and more/year if it's warm enough, and I suspect yield/square metre is unrealistically high too (I haven't checked the figures on this). Outside of intensive market gardening in greenhouses, farmers are lucky to get 2-3 crops/year - but I don't feel one duff game-mechanic should be used to compensate for another).

TLDR: Just reread my opening paragraph again. The rest is just explication for those wanting detail. All I'm saying is moodlets should accurately reflect character's game-states and requirements, and currently they don't.

[zebra03]

Originally posted by therealjohnconnor:

given how misleading the moodlets are. Of course, the game designers are undervaluing nutritional values to encourage people to go out and raid houses (and fight zombies) rather than hole up and farm,

Well the thing with moodlets in terms of food is that they are kinda accurate since you could lets say eat a pack of chips till your full but it doesn't mean that the chips provided all the nutrition you need or is enough fuel for your body to function(Even though they probably do give a lot of energy for something that doesn't fill much)

[therealjohnconnor]

Surely, the processed food market relies on stacking their product with so-called 'taste rewards' like excess salt, sugar and fat to get people to buy them, regardless of their nutritional value (my consumer advisory ends here...). But this shouldn't apply when it comes to bland homegrown veg , what mainly concerns players trying to survive PZ by farming - and seems like just an excuse to not get the hunger moodlets right to me.

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Hoard your chocolate bars. You will need to them to prevent wasting away.

I get what you are saying, but just living on fruit and vegetable crops can and sometimes sadly does cause people to waste away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HwBtRlyxPs&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF30jfTubU&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu

It is good that some easy to sort out diets in zomboid will eventually kill you. Means you have to work harder and scavenge to add to your crops. In surviving long term irl protein is a real issue (among other problems).

Hopefully the animals and hunting update sorts this out.

[Zeithri]

I didn't read the whole thing but,

> Why when you satisfy hunger moodlets does your character lose weight day by day anyway? Video game logic says if you follow such in-game hints, you don't get punished for it.

This is objectively false. You can satisfy your hunger without stuffing your face.
This is how I've been working on losing weight lately.

[The Gat]

Hunger doesn't equal nutrition

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by Poloski:

Hunger doesn't equal nutrition

Very much this. There are tons of actual food items even that are far less calorically dense than others that we eat. Take lettuce for example, or celery, Tomatoes, Cucumbers and many other veggies and fruits. It's food, it's filling, it is in fact nutritious...But they're not calorically dense. If you tried living exclusively off of these things, you would fill your belly long before you took in enough calories from it, and you would slowly lose weight over time.

Many people eat these things as a bulk food to keep themselves from eating too much of other things in a meal. A salad fills your belly with lettuce and a small amount of other things, for example. Heck, A lotta people drink down an 8oz glass of water just before eating so there's less room in their belly and they feel full sooner.

This disparity in caloric intake is basically the entire premise behind losing weight without doing a lot of exercise. Take in lots of the right nutrition through your meals using calorie light options and you will lose weight and generally not feel hungry because your body is getting what it needs.

[Metanoia]

Originally posted by therealjohnconnor:

Why when you satisfy hunger moodlets does your character lose weight day by day anyway? Video game logic says if you follow such in-game hints, you don't get punished for it. Realistically, if I lived on only five tomatoes a day, I would slowly starve to death - but I would also feel desperately hungry most of the time I was doing so and the moodlets currently don't accurately reflect that.

The answer is in PZ's Nutrition tables (see Wiki). As in real life, the game says you need 2200 calories/day to stay healthy i.e. sustain normal weight. And an in-game 0.2kg tomato is worth only 14 calories. You'd need to (grow and) eat 157 tomatoes/day to get in those 2200 calories, or a third of the character's own 80kg bodyweight!

Is this realistic? Standard nutrition tables say 1kg of tomato = 180 cals, approximately three times as nutritious. PZ gets this wrong consistently - a 0.3kg portion of chicken (a Wiki 'food unit') is supposedly worth 150 calories, whereas in the real world the same amount of chicken breast is worth 495 calories, over three times that.

Should PZ be realistic? It'd certainly be easier for players to work out how to feed their character by rule of thumb, assuming they don't access the Nutrition tables on the wiki - and they kind of need to, given how misleading the moodlets are. Of course, the game designers are undervaluing nutritional values to encourage people to go out and raid houses (and fight zombies) rather than hole up and farm, the latter being a boring experience for non-Stardew Valley fans. My complaint isn't with that as such, but that we don't get fair warning of this because the moodlets don't accurately reflect the state of the character's nutritional requirements.

(There's a secondary question of food being too easy to grow - you can get 12 cabbage crops in six months and more/year if it's warm enough, and I suspect yield/square metre is unrealistically high too (I haven't checked the figures on this). Outside of intensive market gardening in greenhouses, farmers are lucky to get 2-3 crops/year - but I don't feel one duff game-mechanic should be used to compensate for another).

TLDR: Just reread my opening paragraph again. The rest is just explication for those wanting detail. All I'm saying is moodlets should accurately reflect character's game-states and requirements, and currently they don't.

I think farming is mostly intended for growing bait to trap animals and cooking, its an auxillary skill used to augment your others, like foraging.

Foraging by itself isnt that powerful in terms of weight gain, but use all of the worms and other stuff you gather to trap some animals or catch some fish, and suddenly you've got *alot* more value out of your foraged/farmed items.

[Narn]

Originally posted by 𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀:

Hoard your chocolate bars. You will need to them to prevent wasting away.

I get what you are saying, but just living on fruit and vegetable crops can and sometimes sadly does cause people to waste away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HwBtRlyxPs&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF30jfTubU&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu

It is good that some easy to sort out diets in zomboid will eventually kill you. Means you have to work harder and scavenge to add to your crops. In surviving long term irl protein is a real issue (among other problems).

Hopefully the animals and hunting update sorts this out.

Watched the videos and agree with most of the observations. However I do think that the video does point to some women who are in the correct weight range and claims that they are underweight just because of a few ribs. I have known a lot of women who over eat lots of meats and they also have ribs showing. Some women are made that way. Otherwise good video.

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Originally posted by Narn:

Originally posted by 𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀:

Hoard your chocolate bars. You will need to them to prevent wasting away.

I get what you are saying, but just living on fruit and vegetable crops can and sometimes sadly does cause people to waste away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HwBtRlyxPs&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF30jfTubU&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu

It is good that some easy to sort out diets in zomboid will eventually kill you. Means you have to work harder and scavenge to add to your crops. In surviving long term irl protein is a real issue (among other problems).

Hopefully the animals and hunting update sorts this out.

Watched the videos and agree with most of the observations. However I do think that the video does point to some women who are in the correct weight range and claims that they are underweight just because of a few ribs. I have known a lot of women who over eat lots of meats and they also have ribs showing. Some women are made that way. Otherwise good video.

Cheers, yeah, and some vegetarians will eat a bit of cheese, take in those calories and animal products, and walk the line just fine. Having seen those videos, whenever my character goes vegan for a few days I am reminded of them and Negan the vegan memes.

[Erikkustrife]

Originally posted by Narn:

Originally posted by 𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀:

Hoard your chocolate bars. You will need to them to prevent wasting away.

I get what you are saying, but just living on fruit and vegetable crops can and sometimes sadly does cause people to waste away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HwBtRlyxPs&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF30jfTubU&list=PL2XJ-n_TYP0qh0JrB1H4llSVuqUCoVcIu

It is good that some easy to sort out diets in zomboid will eventually kill you. Means you have to work harder and scavenge to add to your crops. In surviving long term irl protein is a real issue (among other problems).

Hopefully the animals and hunting update sorts this out.

Watched the videos and agree with most of the observations. However I do think that the video does point to some women who are in the correct weight range and claims that they are underweight just because of a few ribs. I have known a lot of women who over eat lots of meats and they also have ribs showing. Some women are made that way. Otherwise good video.

i Weigh around 135 pounds. I also eat about 4k calouirs a day lol. Some people are just built to be endless voids.

[therealjohnconnor]

Hm, certainly curious and varied responses to my original post, though all look like weak defences of a game mechanic that isn't doing its job.

Amusing hypotheticals about eating sawdust (not being Frostpunk, not viable in-game) miss the point. If I lived on only 5 tomatoes/day, I would not only starve but know I was. Moodlets telling you you're bleeding, sick or in pain warn you constantly you are experiencing them - you don't bleed out or die of fever days later out of the blue because you've satisfied some arbitrary condition (e.g. taken a pill that didn't work). Why doesn't this apply when you're starving too? Claiming the moodlet exists only to stop overeating shows how broken it (or excuse-making for it) is - not least because your character can still eat more than their own bodyweight/day despite it. BTW, Zeithri actually concedes my point but disguises this with categorical language.

In classic Steam forum style, one contributor used my original post as a vehicle for their own preoccupations rather than meaningfully addressing the post. His views are relevant only because as it stands, PZ allows characters to survive solely on a monotonous plant-based diet, just as long as they eat enough of it. I'm sure even the most fundamentalist vegan would recognise eating nothing but 13 cabbages/day would be fatally unhealthy (and embarrassingly gassy), but because PZ only counts calories (+incidentally carb/lipid intake), you can live just fine solely on cabbages during the growing season (in fact, my character has, right into mid-October when the stuff still grows fine, despite near-freezing temperatures out).

If PZ implemented proteins as an essential dietary requirement, this would change as there are few plant-based protein sources available in-game (peanuts??) and none farmable. It would also make sense to forage because although the bait is easier to eat than the rabbit it's set to catch (guaranteed, immediate calories, if half as many), the rabbit is protein, which should be vital to keeping you alive.

A last point: claiming weights are arbitrary is obfuscation. Is it more meaningful to talk of eating 5 tomatoes weighing 200 grams each or 5 'food units' weighting 0.2 'weight units', with the character accounting for 80 and dwindling 'weight units' too, no doubt? Looking at PZ's Nutrition table, it's surely obvious the devs have drawn on real life weights and (inaccurately) nutritional values. Surely part of PZ's appeal is the realism they're trying to introduce into their simulation?

TLDR: As before, my point is made in the 1st paragraph or two - the rest is mere detail for people that prefer reading.

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Originally posted by therealjohnconnor:

Hm, certainly curious and varied responses to my original post, though all look like weak defences of a game mechanic that isn't doing its job.

Amusing hypotheticals about eating sawdust (not being Frostpunk, not viable in-game) miss the point. If I lived on only 5 tomatoes/day, I would not only starve but know I was. Moodlets telling you you're bleeding, sick or in pain warn you constantly you are experiencing them - you don't bleed out or die of fever days later out of the blue because you've satisfied some arbitrary condition (e.g. taken a pill that didn't work). Why doesn't this apply when you're starving too? Claiming the moodlet exists only to stop overeating shows how broken it (or excuse-making for it) is - not least because your character can still eat more than their own bodyweight/day despite it. BTW, Zeithri actually concedes my point but disguises this with categorical language.

In classic Steam forum style, one contributor used my original post as a vehicle for their own preoccupations rather than meaningfully addressing the post. His views are relevant only because as it stands, PZ allows characters to survive solely on a monotonous plant-based diet, just as long as they eat enough of it. I'm sure even the most fundamentalist vegan would recognise eating nothing but 13 cabbages/day would be fatally unhealthy (and embarrassingly gassy), but because PZ only counts calories (+incidentally carb/lipid intake), you can live just fine solely on cabbages during the growing season (in fact, my character has, right into mid-October when the stuff still grows fine, despite near-freezing temperatures out).

If PZ implemented proteins as an essential dietary requirement, this would change as there are few plant-based protein sources available in-game (peanuts??) and none farmable. It would also make sense to forage because although the bait is easier to eat than the rabbit it's set to catch (guaranteed, immediate calories, if half as many), the rabbit is protein, which should be vital to keeping you alive.

A last point: claiming weights are arbitrary is obfuscation. Is it more meaningful to talk of eating 5 tomatoes weighing 200 grams each or 5 'food units' weighting 0.2 'weight units', with the character accounting for 80 and dwindling 'weight units' too, no doubt? Looking at PZ's Nutrition table, it's surely obvious the devs have drawn on real life weights and (inaccurately) nutritional values. Surely part of PZ's appeal is the realism they're trying to introduce into their simulation?

TLDR: As before, my point is made in the 1st paragraph or two - the rest is mere detail for people that prefer reading.

Well it is doing its job. You need to eat some calories or you are going to die. Look to high calorie military rations for soldiers that are on exercises, or in war, for an example of what people need to be taking in under those circumstances. Then consider that your zombie-killer is in a conflict, a type of war.

When lockdown started I cut back my calorie intake and spent plenty of time in the garden. I leaned up very quickly. That's why it seems that zomboid has stumbled into, or created with careful planning, mechanics that represent real life and what tough circumstances will do to your weight if you aren't taking in the calories. It may be frustrating, but it seems realistic.

But if you think you can run, fight, and garden and just live off the produce go ahead. Even trappers starved on rabbit stew diets as well:

"The Hudson Bay Company recorded cases of trappers dying of starvation although eating well on easily available diet of rabbit. The body uses its own vitamins and minerals to digest the rabbit... If they are not replaced, weakness and other symptoms of vitamin deficiency appear.

Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson wrote about a phenomenon among the peoples of northern Canada called rabbit starvation, in which those who eat only very lean meat, such as rabbit, “develop diarrhea in about a week, with headache, lassitude, a vague discomfort.”

Surviving isn't always easy, and you cannot just rely on vegetables or rabbit irl. Caloric deficit is real (in game and out).

[therealjohnconnor]

Funny you quote my entire reply but haven't read it.

My issue is with unhelpful Hunger moodlets and incidentally with PZ's focus on calorie counting and not a nutritionally balanced diet. Yes, Tea, I know you can't live on cabbages alone - a pity PZ's game mechanics don't currently reflect that.

(Interesting survival anecdotes, BTW. Here in UK, we had a case of 'chicken starvation', where a young woman wasted away from eating only KFC nuggets.)

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Originally posted by therealjohnconnor:

Funny you quote my entire reply but haven't read it.

My issue is with unhelpful Hunger moodlets and incidentally with PZ's focus on calorie counting and not a nutritionally balanced diet. Yes, Tea, I know you can't live on cabbages alone - a pity PZ's game mechanics don't currently reflect that.

(Interesting survival anecdotes, BTW. Here in UK, we had a case of 'chicken starvation', where a young woman wasted away from eating only KFC nuggets.)

Only KFC nuggets is a bad way to go...

Yeah, nutrition could be expanded (although it is a highly contested subject), but we do need those calories. They could have more of a focus on protein (given the hard work of surviving the Zeds) with the need to help your recovery, or vitamins and consequences for deficiency (I would like that) but they went calories. There are some other funny choices in game design, like raw egg being able to kill you, yet huge numbers in Asia eat raw egg as a flavouring. I've eaten it as well, and still here.

[Heavyeatsandvich]

This will likely see an overhaul when Build 42 (Focus on AI Animals, Gun Rework/More Guns, Calorie Overhaul, More complex design on woodland/country survivalist players) becomes a thing, which should fix your issues. For now, as a survivor who had a guy last 8 months calorie intake is boosted greatly from trapping, make several of these far from zombie spawns and check them every day before going to bed, (bait at day, take at night)/ 75 tiles from your base; pair them up with a garden that is fully developed (Cabbage/Broc/Potato/Tomato are the best, ignore the rest) and make STEWS. It will be more then enough and could even lead to overweight.