Slow Reader, an example of flawed design?

[Quikel]

A few days ago I started playing PZ again and while I was trying out some mods and check on the little additions on IWBUMS I met the bane of my existance again. Aside from playing around with metalworking and some new traits (smoker), i also picked up "Slow Healing" and "Slow reading". While I already knew that slow healing is the absolute worst trait you can possible have when you fracture a bone, i was hoping for some adjustments to it in the past months. Unfortunately that did not happen.

Same goes for slow reader.

While I am writing this thread, my character is still reading Carpentry for Beginners and I ate lunch, watched a youtube video and made a phone call. Iam basically sitting ingame, for more than 20 minutes, reading a book. To be honest, I really really hate this and I dont think that these time sinks should be in the game. I mean I dont mind waiting 25 days for my potatoes to grow, cause i can still do something in the meantime and hobbling around with a broken leg for 7-8 weeks is nightmare on earth but at least i >could< still do something in this time. But reading a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ book for 20-30min straight, not being able to move or do anything else? No thanks. Being illiterate might even become attractive (for lower levels), given the time i just waste by standing next to the bookshelf.

Iam pretty sure that by sawing planks for 20min straight would get me to lv 2 without having to invest the time in reading these books, but that still remains to be proven.

Anyhow: If any of you devs read this - please be so kind and oversee some of the traits. Some of them are absolutely atrocious and boresome. I have yet to play a game that forces me to stay in place for 20-30min without being able to do anything.

Ah, just finished this thread in time. Time to read Cooking for beginners!

Edit: Added the following part, just in order to clarify my initial point:

Originally posted by The Emperors Finest:

I was just discussing this trait with a few friends and we came to the conclusion that its not just this trait in itself but acutally the whole process of reading which we do think is flawed. Whenever you read, you are frozen and it doesnt really matter if you split it in five sessions in which you read 50 pages each or one session in which you read 250 - by the end of the day you have always wasted X minutes of your time by staring at the screen, doing literally nothing.

Maybe I didnt make this point very clear in the initial post, which is a mistake on my end.

At any rate it would be nice to have more input from a few more members of this community.

Edit 2: Edited the title, since people only read that and got hung up on things that are actually irrelevant to the discussion.

[Drizzt]

It's not broken? Wtf. It's not like you would ever have a tight schedule in this game. Picking clumpsy traits and other "handicap-on-the-field" traits also wastes your time, by the fact that you are probably going to have a tougher time looting crowded places.

Why do you panic over wasting 2-4 in-game hours?

[spooney]

Originally posted by I'm the bomb!:

This was indeed a serious post, as you would have understood should you have read the whole thing. Dont try to ridicule things with these lame troll attempts. Try to stay on subject or leave it be.

As for ats_j's comment:

How does something manage to immerse me if it basically tells me "Go, do something else in the meantime, you have to stand still now for 20 minutes" ? (we are talking especially about multiplayer here where you cant x3 whenever you feel like it.) If that is great way to sell immersion, then iam not buying it.

Making something tedious and design it outright boring is not something you would want to have in any game by default. And its not just that. It just takes away control from you. I can only repeat myself, since you have never adressed that in the first place. There is even a difference between tedious (slow healer) and "you cant play the game for X minutes". As I have stated before already, you can still play the game, even when your leg is broken for several weeks. Its painful and you move at a horrible pace, but you can still play the game. Standing next to the bookshelf for 20 min straight (X ingame hours)is not playing the game. This is almost like some mobile game where you click on "Start research" wait X hours and come back when its done. Trying to sell this as a feature is even worse. There is a fundamental difference between slow healer and slow reader and it sure doesnt help with immersion.

I just recalled a thing from Natural Selection 2. Back in NS1 the Onos (some fat monster) had an ability called "Devour". You could basically consume a rival player and digest him while moving around. The trapped player couldnt do shi t. He just sat inside the belly of a beast and had to look at a screen of wobbly innards as he was digested over a period of 10-20 (?) seconds. While it was pretty cool and terrifiyng the first few times, the devs realized that they didnt want to have too many abilities in the game that take away control from the players. There were several others already, some minor some others majors annoyances (sticky webs etc). So in some lenghty post they explained on how taking away control from the player is always a bad thing in game design and therefore they would rework the Onos and change its devour ability to something else. Natural Selection did not become an easy game with this change and its still as unforiving and complex as it ever was, it simply became a better game that managed to maintain the utility of the Onos by giving it a different ability yet taking away something that was widely considered bad game design.

Please tell me how you can magically do multiple things while reading.
Zomboid is more of a simulator than a " game". Would you rather have a player interaction with the book where you have to click to flip a page? You realise you can speed up time right?
I have not messed around with the settings so maybe you can set back the time it takes to read somewhere.
Or perhaps you'd prefer to remove it.
I don't think reading is fun but it makes sense for balancing considering the things you unlock and the extra XP multiplier.
Played it on multiplayer with friends for hours at a time where i was the main carpenter putting up fences for the base and building other stuff which ended up with needing plenty of reading and searching for books.We did not speed up time because there is no need and not everyone was doing reading.How i dealt with it was, i eat/drink and spend 5-10 mins reading after exhausting my character from doing carpentry then once im back to normal i'd headout and do more carpenry.Rinse and repeat, worked really well then once the book was read i get a nice xp multiplier to speed up the lvling.
You are only ruining the experience yourself by " sitting there doing nothing for 20 mins"
if you want a really bad trait setup pick obese and hearty appetite, which one of my friends did at the time.Lead to interesting moments of near death and lots of exploration for food that he mostly ate.

[Rauch]

Originally posted by I'm the bomb!:

Okay, while i was still monitoring this thread every now and then i kept reading "Dont pick it then, duh."

That is not a solution to a broken game mechanic that is nothing but tedious. Its not something that makes the game harder even. Its just a poorly designed trait that is neither engaging nor does it put me in a spot where i have control over my avatar. That is not calling for a nerf, it is me asking for an improvement of an existing mechanic within a game that is still in early access - something anyone in this community is most likely welcome to do.

There is no other game that I know that forces you to sit and wait for 15 minutes, doing nothing, tabbing out, taking your dog for a walk, whatever. I mean I even made several suggestions on how this negative trait could still be negative trait without it becoming meaningless.

Jumping to conclusions, telling me i want the game to become easier is not what i wrote and implying these things isnt just rude but also shows a complete disregard on what i actually wrote in this thread.

I'm going to stop you for a moment.

The idea of reading while resting or before your character actually falls asleep? Those were good.

Assuming these perks are bad isn't.

Again: they are situational. Countless people have no issue playing with these perks. I take slow reader and I end up reading a lot of skill books REGARDLESS. This is genuinely you, as a player, choosing a perk and trying to cry about how you have to read a book because there's not another option to reward you these points in the form of a tolerable trait.

The trait isn't meaningless nor is it an issue. You just want it to be a different trait.

Edit: To specify what I mean? These negative traits are the most picked because players simply play around them. As much as I hate to hear it when it's said to me? "Git gud".

[spooney]

Originally posted by iwa:

Originally posted by κƶ | spooney︼:

Please tell me how you can magically do multiple things while reading.
Zomboid is more of a simulator than a " game". Would you rather have a player interaction with the book where you have to click to flip a page? You realise you can speed up time right?
I have not messed around with the settings so maybe you can set back the time it takes to read somewhere.
Or perhaps you'd prefer to remove it.
I don't think reading is fun but it makes sense for balancing considering the things you unlock and the extra XP multiplier.
Played it on multiplayer with friends for hours at a time where i was the main carpenter putting up fences for the base and building other stuff which ended up with needing plenty of reading and searching for books.We did not speed up time because there is no need and not everyone was doing reading.How i dealt with it was, i eat/drink and spend 5-10 mins reading after exhausting my character from doing carpentry then once im back to normal i'd headout and do more carpenry.Rinse and repeat, worked really well then once the book was read i get a nice xp multiplier to speed up the lvling.
You are only ruining the experience yourself by " sitting there doing nothing for 20 mins"
if you want a really bad trait setup pick obese and hearty appetite, which one of my friends did at the time.Lead to interesting moments of near death and lots of exploration for food that he mostly ate.

Did you even read what he said? Same goes for the guy below you^. You're literally trying to argue as if he didn't already point certain things out. Please read the thread before replying.

a) He is talking about flawed mechanics, not traits themselves.
b) He is mainly talking about multiplayer. You can't speed up time in multiplayer. However, the concept is still flawed in singleplayer.
c) The concept of needing to go afk for x minutes to achieve something in the game is what is being discussed here. You being fine with amount of time it wastes is irrelevant to this discussion, as it doesn't take away from the fact that it is a greatly flawed gameplay mechanic. Rendering the player immobile and unable to do anything for a longer period of time to achieve a menial (but often necessary) task is indisputably bad game design.
d) There have been multiple suggestions on how to fix said issue. This is, at its core, the goal of this thread. Suggesting ways to improve a gameplay mechanic that very obviously needs improving. I suggest reading through previous posts before assuming the idea is to make people "magically flip book pages for entertainment".



@OP

I think the issue here is too many people are getting hung up on the topic of traits, rather than the concepts of reading/healing being fundumentally flawed. I would suggest remaking this thread to open the possibility for a more productive discussion - rather than this mess of people not reading the thread before replying with the same irrelevant comments over and over, forcing OP to waste time defending himself rather than achieve anything. The title is misleading.

edit: Though seeing as the devs already replied, maybe a suggestion thread would be better than a discussion thread!

I disagree that they are "fundumentally flawed".
Tell me why you think it's fundamentally flawed.For it to be funamentally flawed the whole mechanic would barely work.As it is, it's simple yet flawed and needs work.
I mean, the suggestions to " fix the flaws" is to sit down and make it fast forward or in bed before asleep. Which is hardly different but it is better and ironic as OP was saying fast forwarding is not a way to sell immersion.
And i see the devs have replied which is nice, perhaps it is time to move on.

[WillieSea]

To be fair to the developers, they have a setting that can be changed so books are read faster or slower, depending on what the player or server administration wants to do.

I don't recall what it's called since I am on my phone at work, but it has to do with the reading speed multiple. (Unless it was removed in the last year.)

You could change that setting so books are read in a minute.

[Death]

I still don't understand your argument. You say it's boring to have your character just stand there and read yet you suggest you can make your character sit to read instead, which doesn't change the mechanic of reading at all. So it's boring to watch your guy stand and read, but it'd be a blast to watch your chatacter sit and read instead? If you're saying you should be able to run around and loot and do all the other things in game all while reading a book then I'm not for that at all. You try to go about your regular day as is with your nose constantly in a book and see how that works out for you.

[TeK_NiQ]

A game mechanic that you don't like doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed. Obviously, it's working as designed at the moment, but let me explain a little about what I mean.

1. The skill point system exists, such that you have returns on your time played/investments into particular activities.
2. While you can adjust the rate at which you learn skills, certain features/activities/constructions are locked behind a specific skill level, giving you something to progress to.
3. There is a line between making something too easy to attain (and cause the player to become bored) and too hard (and cause the player to give up).

In Project Zomboid, it is intended for skills to be hard to level up if you didn't build your character with the necessary traits to increase the XP bonus. However, this doesn't prevent you from learning them.

As it is, you don't have to read books at all. Of course, the trade-off for this is that it will take you longer to progress a skill. Book's are basically an investment, you sacrifice time (reading) for a faster rate of skill progression. If you're then going to make the argument that this is preventing you from doing xyz, then the answer is, well, yeah. I don't like always like trapping, so I don't do it. Is this bad design, or just my preference?

You also make a suggestion to the dev's which is entirely in your ability to do currently: combine reading with other activities. When I'm working on progressing a skill, I just keep the book in my inventory. When I have some downtime (healing, resting from exhaustion, waiting for more daylight, etc) I start reading.

Really, I think your argument is without merit because the game has provided you the tools to play anyway you want. Here are just a few examples:

1. Adjust the speed that books are read (everything is as fast a reading a magazine, hooray).
2. Use the time controls in the game to advance speed, it isn't like it's behind a development menu (assuming SP, of course).
3. Increase the rate at which skills are learned (no more need for books).
4. Build your character with the skills you want to play, reducing the reliance on books.
5. Use one of the mods mentioned.
6. Take the fast learner trait.
7. Take the fast-reader trait (and something else to compromise, like the clumsy trait you mentioned. I hear that the clumsy trait will still actually allow you to play the game).

If you accept that you at least have the options above, I don't think that a reasonable conclusion to make is to instead request that the dev's "fix it", when there are other (and in my opinion, better) things for them to work on. That is, of course, their prerogative.

[DeadlyDanDaMan]

Originally posted by nasKo:

Originally posted by The Emperors Finest:

This part.

Good one.

We'll look into rebalancing traits in the future. Automatically fast forwarding when reading might be a nice idea and being able to sit down in a chair while doing it would also be neat.
Certainly something to be considered :)

And then a group of zeds busts down your door when you aren't paying attention during the auto fast forward phase....yeah, that couldn't possibly go wrong...fast forwarding HAS to remain a conscious decision because of the incredible risk that it is. That CANNOT be changed.

[PickleRick]

<3 The sleep idea, mix in sleep events+npc ish events when those are a thing. You zoning right into a book when "suprise".

[MadMikael]

I have read every comment in this thread. I think there are some good ideas to be gleamed here.

First off, irl, when you read, you can do other things (multitasking is a real life thing that many people do). The trade off in game should be similar to that in real life - specifically relating to how much attention you give to each task and how much you're distracted. So, I have several examples that come to mind.

Keep in mind, I actually haven't played in a while, so maybe some of these have been added already; if so, just ignore them and move on please.

People can do all sorts of things while reading; basically, these things involve using only one hand, or no hands at all (as the book is in one hand).

So, it's only logical that you should be able to do certain things while you read; walking around is the most simple, but anything done with one hand should be available too; cooking, as someone mentioned, is a good example.

But your legs and body should not be "pinned". You should be able to sit/lay down, and potentially boost other stats. A common thing irl is exercise; many people read while on a treadmill or exercise bike etc.. perhaps this could be considered.

But when dealing with "multitasking", and especially when considering the "auto fast forward" function (which if added, should be an option, not forced), is you have to consider the character's attention and distraction factors. Audiobooks would obviously cause loss of hearing, but could be distracting more as well. But, when you get into a task, you can get distracted, so "surprises" should be considered. When "multitasking", obviously you should be more distracted as well. It should be considered, that irl you can get really involved in something, but, loud noises etc. could distract you. Also, having a radio playing music in the background while you read, could boost happiness, but, decrease hearing and allow for more surprises.

But the main point is, when reading AND cooking for example, you need to pay attention to both; so neither gets your FULL attention; so your reading will be slowed, and its possible you could burn your food (irl). So, if ever the devs decide to add more multitasking, they should consider these things and hopefully emulate them in a fun and engaging way. If you move, your reading speed should be slowed slightly. If you do another task that requires attention, it should affect it as well. This does not sound like a really easy change to me, so good luck Devs ;)

Now, a ludicrous suggestion (not serious): maybe add a "mini-game" while you read that engages the player; it could reference the character's engagement level in the book; just give them something to click on so they have something to do. A trade off could be, successful attempts boost reading speed; at the same time, there's an increased chance of "surprises".

[Manwith Noname]

Originally posted by MadMikael1:

Now, a ludicrous suggestion (not serious): maybe add a "mini-game" while you read that engages the player; it could reference the character's engagement level in the book; just give them something to click on so they have something to do. A trade off could be, successful attempts boost reading speed; at the same time, there's an increased chance of "surprises".

A turn page button that jumps around the screen. If you manage to click it, you read the page, until you click, you don't progress.