Posted this on the reddit but thought I'd put it here too. Walock's in PvP suck lol.

[DayOfTheDead2]

Seriously. This has become so much of an issue that it's really hard to ignore now. And I get that when it comes to PvE content Warlocks are undisputed champs. Well of Radiance is basically required in GM content and since the introduction of Void and Arc 3.0 those subclasses have become absolutely killer in PvE with Arc Jolts and Void having tons of Devour and Weaken/Suppression synergies.

But this is about PvP. In crucible, Warlocks are god-awful, bordering on unusable. There's a reason why in PvP you see pretty much exclusively Titans and Hunters these days. Let's start with melee abilities. Warlocks have 0 and I do mean 0 one hit melees across all subclasses no matter how you build it. And yes, we do have ranged melee abilities all of which, excluding Penumbral Blast are useless. Penumbral Blast is only useful because of stasis freeze because again it does not one hit. Hunters have there knives, titans have claps and shoulder charges, all of these one hit combatants. Compounding this issue is that Warlocks have a slower uncharged melee than all other classes. Which results in an automatic loss anytime you are engaged in a slap fight as a warlock. Now, to "compensate" Bungie gave us and an additional 1m of lunge distance, which in practice often does absolutely nothing at all because even with element of surprise you will often just get slapped twice even if you hit first. Also the lunge can and will mess up some charged melees by throwing the player too far ahead, though I've seen this less in recent years. But overall, Warlock melees suck in PvP. They're really good for clearing ads in PvE, but awful in PvP because they lack any capability to one hit opponents.

Next is class abilities. These probably don't need anything changed but the annoyance they bring compounds with other problems. in PvP Titans get a literal barricade that they cannot be shot through and also can grant them overheals. Hunters get a dodge that grants them a few precious frames of invulnerability, allows them to move into cover, and can reload they're weapons/turn them invisible. Warlocks get, a circle that heals or boosts damage and range. The healing effect is slow enough that you can be killed while inside of it which is a problem not found in the Titan barricades. The empowering rift is good at what it does but strips away mobility forcing you to play more statically while granting no survivability. The only good side benefit of rifts is that Arc rifts grant arc souls which can help in firefights. Void rifts grant the vampirism orb but the utility of that is close to none in PvP. This means rifts really can only be used in cover, which I suppose is fine. Do I think rifts should be altered? No, they're at the correct place balancing-wise. But with rifts being designed the way they are alongside everything else about Warlocks being weak in PvP, it really just adds to an already massive problem.

The jump effects. They're awful. Trying to move around as a Warlock is like holding a massive "Please have this free kill!" sign. Warlock jumps are slowwwwww. Not a problem in of itself but it again provides annoyance when other aspects of the Warlock kit are weak. I hear the comments now, "Just use Blink," or 'what about Heat Rises?" Blink is only available in the void subclass. For what reason this is I cannot fathom and I still wonder why it has not been made available for all classes. It's a weird leftover quirk of the old subclass trees. But if you don't run void, no Blink for you. Heat Rises faces a similar problem in that it is only available in the Solar subclass. Granted nearly all Solar warlocks will use this aspect for it's mobility but it also consumes other utility. Oh, and if you're using Arc or Stasis, you're at out of luck. Is Blink really good? Yes. Does Heat Rises negate the mobility issue? Again Yes. But no other class is forced to make trade-offs or run particular classes just to have a usable jump. It's a minor thing but it again really just piles onto the other issues.

Finally, the Supers. The Supers for Warlock suck in PvP the only exception being Well of Radiance because it is hard to say that an automatic unkillable zone is underpowered. But if we look across the board the Supers are pretty universally terrible. In Void we have two fire and forget Supers and one roaming super. The Nova Bomb variants are basically just a free kill Super. Not bad by any means, but they benefit from having a team grouped up which rarely will happen in PvP. The Vortex Nova Bomb also serves some area denial and the Cataclysm Nova Bomb helps alleviate the need for enemies to be so closely knit but both are still fairly underwhelming as opposed to say Thundercrash or Shadowshot. Thundercrash suffers from the same necessity to have players be tight-knit but at least provides mobility and can be somewhat more usable with it's exotic(though that is another large issue). Shadowshot has tethers which apply suppression and also allow for more frags on the cleanup after the Super is fired. Gathering Storm at least provides a long period of area denial while still having the one shot effect. I'll get into the roaming super later. Arc has two Supers. Both suck. again I'll talk about Stormtrance in a second but Chaos Reach is truly awful. It deals such little damage and also leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a significant period of time. Yes it can be used well, but it really isn't all that powerful. We've already talked about Well of Radiance and I'll get into Daybreak in a second. Winter's Wrath is very usable and works very well just as all Stasis Supers do. but it has the same problem as all roaming supers on Warlock do. The main issue that no other roaming super for other classes really does. It's too easy to get killed while using it. Nova Warp suffers the least from this as you get to teleport somewhat frequently the trade-off being the Super has little range. However the cooldown is extraordinarily long at nine minutes and 6 seconds. Stormtrance is laughable. It's teleport has too long a cooldown leading to most Stormtrance kills resulting from the landfall ability upon activation. Daybreak is the best as it provides incredible airborne mobility but Solar for Warlock is overall the weakest class and also the target acquisition of the flame trails is still somewhat bad, though they did receive a slight buff a while back. But the Super STILL suffers from the user being super weak while it is in use. Winter's Wrath avoids this problem somewhat as anyone who's trying to shoot you will get frozen but Stasis is also a somewhat weak subclass compared to Void and Arc on Warlock though not by much. Do other Roaming Supers on other classes have these issues. Short answer, no they don't. Long answer, for Hunters, Golden Gun does leave them weak but is an instakill with no projectile travel time unlike Daybreak. Arc Staff allows you to negate all incoming damage, completely eliminating this problem, and Spectral Blades turns the user invisible. Also Hunters retain mobility during their supers which warlocks lack in the first place. Well what about Titans? Sentinel Shield, again, allows the caster to negate all incoming damage, Burning Maul has decent mobility and Fists of Havoc alongside Glacial Quake also have alright mobility. But what the Titan Supers lack in mobility they make up for because the casters are virtually unkillable while the Super is in use as the damage resistance stat gets jacked up to overdrive for Burning Maul, Fists of Havoc, and especially Glacial Quake. See the problem. Warlock Supers leave the user far too vulnerable as the user gets none of the benefits of mobility like a Hunter does and nowhere near the damage reduction Titans do. This is truly awful in the roaming Super meta we have seen in the past few years

And that's it. That's my comprehensive explanation of why Warlocks need desperate help to remain relevant in the current PvP meta. You may ask, "If I think Warlocks suck in PvP so bad why not either not play PvP or use a Hunter/Titan?" The answers to those questions are simple. I don't want to be relegated to not playing part of the game's content simply because of the class I chose and I also don't want to spend hours grinding on a separate character to sue solely for PvP, as I'm sure many others don't because that's ridiculous. I encourage and welcome y'all's thoughts on this, but needed to get this out of my system. Could be way off-base but I really don't think I am. Apologies for any formatting or grammatical errors/inconsistencies.

[GK | Leviathan]

Tl;dr.

No they're really not that bad.

[N33MA]

Nguyên văn bởi GK ｜ Leviathan:

Tl;dr.

No they're really not that bad.

^

[DayOfTheDead2]

Nguyên văn bởi N33MA:

Nguyên văn bởi GK ｜ Leviathan:

Tl;dr.

No they're really not that bad.

^

If they're really not that bad then why does the current pick rate for Arc Titans and Void Hunters match the total pick rate for all Warlock Subclasses. They see nearly no play in PvP and you couldn't pay someone to run Warlock in Trials rn. That definitely says something about their PvP potency.

[GK | Leviathan]

Nguyên văn bởi DayOfTheDead2:

Nguyên văn bởi N33MA:

^

If they're really not that bad then why does the current pick rate for Arc Titans and Void Hunters match the total pick rate for all Warlock Subclasses. They see nearly no play in PvP and you couldn't pay someone to run Warlock in Trials rn. That definitely says something about their PvP potency.

As a Titan main since D1, Then at beyond light a hunter main, I literally only made a warlock to get the Iron Banner guild when it first came out.

Now I'm a PVP Warlock main, did my last card on flawless, can safely say without a hazard of a doubt, Warlocks have PLENTY ability to compete in regular 6's or high end PVP content.

[N33MA]

Nguyên văn bởi DayOfTheDead2:

Nguyên văn bởi N33MA:

^

If they're really not that bad then why does the current pick rate for Arc Titans and Void Hunters match the total pick rate for all Warlock Subclasses. They see nearly no play in PvP and you couldn't pay someone to run Warlock in Trials rn. That definitely says something about their PvP potency.

Because they have some really out of bound abilities. That means that they should toned down rather than buffing warlocks to an equal absurd.

[AMD Ryzen 7 5200HX 2.9GHz]

I'm not going to read wall of text,

I'm kinda lazy and pathetic,

[Jufrow]

Warlock is at best A-Tier atm at least as far as solo is concerned. Stasis is arguably S-Tier in some specific cases (certain GMs and PvP). Yes Well is amazing for group content. Void is kind of good because of its mechanics but it has a ♥♥♥♥ super. Also using charge nades now forces usage of a 1-slot fragment.

Hunters and Titans have multiple useful specs and exotic combos that make them have multiple S-Tier specs. Warlock exotics are actually starting become the problem because of they are designed and pigeon hole the class. Eye of Another World is a good example of an exotic that kind of breaks the mold and can work for multiple things although it's best for stasis. Starfire Protocol is an example of one of our best exotics but forcing us to play a certain spec.

As a Warlock main for years I am tired of it and have barely touched mine this season. Without the buffs from last season solar is just meh. Void is always pretty good. Arc is good but it's just good not great.

EDIT: should probably mention I didn't actually read the full OP; I'm just stating the actual state of Warlocks.

[Mr. Figgles]

I guess let's just pretend solar warlock wasn't, and still isn't one of the BEST pvp subclasses in the entire game.

[zeus]

Didn't read it all, but i am going to disagree.

Warlocks are far from being garbage. What you are seeing is the playing field being messed around by Bungie, this is something that happens all the time. If you pay attention to seasons, there is always specific builds or specific weapons or specific elements being focused on. Warlocks have always been the top dog for PVE and not long ago they were also the top dog in PVP, with the light subclass changes, the PVP playing field became less attractive for warlocks because they were a bit too strong already. The only exception was stasis launch, but warlocks could still take the piss on people by freezing supers with melee and cancelling them to use class ability to freeze people in place. I got frozen many times as a titan missile main, and it pissed me off big time how a single melee ability could freeze my super midair and nullify it. Sounds balanced, amirite?

Not to mention, warlocks have had melee advantage for the longest time in PVP. They could throw melees faster than hunters and titans, titans are meant to be the melee focused class but for some reason warlocks always clapped titans into oblivion if we started slapping each other.

As for PVE, titans got severely nerfed as a support class, making warlocks the main go to for support now. Titan bubble gets annihilated when it takes too much damage, doing the season ketch activity on master, in the room with the 2 tanks, pop a bubble and see how long it lasts, it usually vanishes in 5-10 seconds if the tank focuses you, that is how useless the bubble is now.

[DayOfTheDead2]

Nguyên văn bởi zeus:

Didn't read it all, but i am going to disagree.

Warlocks are far from being garbage. What you are seeing is the playing field being messed around by Bungie, this is something that happens all the time. If you pay attention to seasons, there is always specific builds or specific weapons or specific elements being focused on. Warlocks have always been the top dog for PVE and not long ago they were also the top dog in PVP, with the light subclass changes, the PVP playing field became less attractive for warlocks because they were a bit too strong already. The only exception was stasis launch, but warlocks could still take the piss on people by freezing supers with melee and cancelling them to use class ability to freeze people in place. I got frozen many times as a titan missile main, and it pissed me off big time how a single melee ability could freeze my super midair and nullify it. Sounds balanced, amirite?

Not to mention, warlocks have had melee advantage for the longest time in PVP. They could throw melees faster than hunters and titans, titans are meant to be the melee focused class but for some reason warlocks always clapped titans into oblivion if we started slapping each other.

As for PVE, titans got severely nerfed as a support class, making warlocks the main go to for support now. Titan bubble gets annihilated when it takes too much damage, doing the season ketch activity on master, in the room with the 2 tanks, pop a bubble and see how long it lasts, it usually vanishes in 5-10 seconds if the tank focuses you, that is how useless the bubble is now.

I'm talking strictly about PvP so dunno why you're talking about Master Ketchcrash. As for Stasis that's the only good Warlock subclass for PvP rn and I'm really dying to know how many times you've been hit with Prenumbral Blast during Thundercrash because that is so near impossible that I really don't believe it happens often at all. Warlocks literally have the slowest melee in the game. The melee time for Hunters and Titans is the same and time between melees for Warlocks is slower but they get 1m more of lunge distance. That's something I very explicitly pointed out but I guess I shouldn't expect much seeing as you started off my proclaiming "didn't read all of this." The subclass 3.0 updates ♥♥♥♥ all over Warlocks in every aspect. Every unique intrinsic of our kits were stripped away and given to other classes as well and Warlocks often received flat out nerfs like in Solar 3.0 which separated Heat Rises and Icarus Dash into 2 separate Fragments. The real shift is we've seen a shift in meta to Roaming Supers. The Warlock Roaming Supers all suck because they offer no survivability and leave the caster vulnerable. Titans receive huge increases to resilience and Hunters maintain mobility in Supers. Warlocks don't have those to begin with. Only Daybreak offers any valuable mobility and Shadebinder remains strong due to it's freezing capability. Nova Warp has a ridiculous cooldown which ensures it won't be played and Stormtrance is a laughable joke that has no mobility to speak of. Compare this to Sentinel Shield and Arc Staff which can negate incoming damage entirely, or Spectral Blades which grants invisibility and screws with the radar and it's clear the Warlock roaming Supers are lacking in PvP. Like I said. There are more Nightstalker Hunters than all Warlock subclasses in PvP. There are more Striker Titans than all Warlock subclasses in PvP. Pick rates don't lie. But people do.

[The_HappyHollow]

The amount of times I have been nuked by warlock supers over other classes counters the comment that they are way underpowered compared to the others. The only reason titan has a higher pickrate is because they are the kings of pvp with their abilities. Outside of that people use hunters more because they look cool. Warlocks are just as capable of pulling apart other player as any class is outside of arc titan.

[DayOfTheDead2]

Nguyên văn bởi Mr. Figgles:

I guess let's just pretend solar warlock wasn't, and still isn't one of the BEST pvp subclasses in the entire game.

I will grant it was ridiculously strong but Solar warlocks got nerfed with Solar 3.0 in Season of the Haunted. Are Dawnblade warlocks still prevalent? Yes, they have the highest pick rate in PvP for Warlocks. Are they anywhere as good as they used to be? No and that's a good thing. Just sucks that for Warlocks who have Void or Arc builds they're basically fat out of luck when it comes to higher end PvP.

[DayOfTheDead2]

Nguyên văn bởi Likely Unlucky:

The amount of times I have been nuked by warlock supers over other classes counters the comment that they are way underpowered compared to the others. The only reason titan has a higher pickrate is because they are the kings of PvP with their abilities. Outside of that people use hunters more because they look cool. Warlocks are just as capable of pulling apart other player as any class is outside of arc titan.

Every class has a one hit Super. Hunter's have Gathering Storm, Silence and Squall, and Blade Barrage. Shadowshot doesn't always one hit but applies a tether alleviating the issue. Titans have Thundercrash and Hammer of Sol. Thundercrash can also net kills with Curiass of The Fallen Star equipped before making a landing for the huge damage routput. PvP meta is roaming Supers, not fire and forgets, you see Warlock fire and forgets moe because the Warlock roaming supers suck whereas the Hunter and Titan ones don't.

[Eriana]

Nguyên văn bởi DayOfTheDead2:

Seriously. This has become so much of an issue that it's really hard to ignore now. And I get that when it comes to PvE content Warlocks are undisputed champs. Well of Radiance is basically required in GM content and since the introduction of Void and Arc 3.0 those subclasses have become absolutely killer in PvE with Arc Jolts and Void having tons of Devour and Weaken/Suppression synergies.

But this is about PvP. In crucible, Warlocks are god-awful, bordering on unusable. There's a reason why in PvP you see pretty much exclusively Titans and Hunters these days. Let's start with melee abilities. Warlocks have 0 and I do mean 0 one hit melees across all subclasses no matter how you build it. And yes, we do have ranged melee abilities all of which, excluding Penumbral Blast are useless. Penumbral Blast is only useful because of stasis freeze because again it does not one hit. Hunters have there knives, titans have claps and shoulder charges, all of these one hit combatants. Compounding this issue is that Warlocks have a slower uncharged melee than all other classes. Which results in an automatic loss anytime you are engaged in a slap fight as a warlock. Now, to "compensate" Bungie gave us and an additional 1m of lunge distance, which in practice often does absolutely nothing at all because even with element of surprise you will often just get slapped twice even if you hit first. Also the lunge can and will mess up some charged melees by throwing the player too far ahead, though I've seen this less in recent years. But overall, Warlock melees suck in PvP. They're really good for clearing ads in PvE, but awful in PvP because they lack any capability to one hit opponents.

Next is class abilities. These probably don't need anything changed but the annoyance they bring compounds with other problems. in PvP Titans get a literal barricade that they cannot be shot through and also can grant them overheals. Hunters get a dodge that grants them a few precious frames of invulnerability, allows them to move into cover, and can reload they're weapons/turn them invisible. Warlocks get, a circle that heals or boosts damage and range. The healing effect is slow enough that you can be killed while inside of it which is a problem not found in the Titan barricades. The empowering rift is good at what it does but strips away mobility forcing you to play more statically while granting no survivability. The only good side benefit of rifts is that Arc rifts grant arc souls which can help in firefights. Void rifts grant the vampirism orb but the utility of that is close to none in PvP. This means rifts really can only be used in cover, which I suppose is fine. Do I think rifts should be altered? No, they're at the correct place balancing-wise. But with rifts being designed the way they are alongside everything else about Warlocks being weak in PvP, it really just adds to an already massive problem.

The jump effects. They're awful. Trying to move around as a Warlock is like holding a massive "Please have this free kill!" sign. Warlock jumps are slowwwwww. Not a problem in of itself but it again provides annoyance when other aspects of the Warlock kit are weak. I hear the comments now, "Just use Blink," or 'what about Heat Rises?" Blink is only available in the void subclass. For what reason this is I cannot fathom and I still wonder why it has not been made available for all classes. It's a weird leftover quirk of the old subclass trees. But if you don't run void, no Blink for you. Heat Rises faces a similar problem in that it is only available in the Solar subclass. Granted nearly all Solar warlocks will use this aspect for it's mobility but it also consumes other utility. Oh, and if you're using Arc or Stasis, you're at out of luck. Is Blink really good? Yes. Does Heat Rises negate the mobility issue? Again Yes. But no other class is forced to make trade-offs or run particular classes just to have a usable jump. It's a minor thing but it again really just piles onto the other issues.

Finally, the Supers. The Supers for Warlock suck in PvP the only exception being Well of Radiance because it is hard to say that an automatic unkillable zone is underpowered. But if we look across the board the Supers are pretty universally terrible. In Void we have two fire and forget Supers and one roaming super. The Nova Bomb variants are basically just a free kill Super. Not bad by any means, but they benefit from having a team grouped up which rarely will happen in PvP. The Vortex Nova Bomb also serves some area denial and the Cataclysm Nova Bomb helps alleviate the need for enemies to be so closely knit but both are still fairly underwhelming as opposed to say Thundercrash or Shadowshot. Thundercrash suffers from the same necessity to have players be tight-knit but at least provides mobility and can be somewhat more usable with it's exotic(though that is another large issue). Shadowshot has tethers which apply suppression and also allow for more frags on the cleanup after the Super is fired. Gathering Storm at least provides a long period of area denial while still having the one shot effect. I'll get into the roaming super later. Arc has two Supers. Both suck. again I'll talk about Stormtrance in a second but Chaos Reach is truly awful. It deals such little damage and also leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a significant period of time. Yes it can be used well, but it really isn't all that powerful. We've already talked about Well of Radiance and I'll get into Daybreak in a second. Winter's Wrath is very usable and works very well just as all Stasis Supers do. but it has the same problem as all roaming supers on Warlock do. The main issue that no other roaming super for other classes really does. It's too easy to get killed while using it. Nova Warp suffers the least from this as you get to teleport somewhat frequently the trade-off being the Super has little range. However the cooldown is extraordinarily long at nine minutes and 6 seconds. Stormtrance is laughable. It's teleport has too long a cooldown leading to most Stormtrance kills resulting from the landfall ability upon activation. Daybreak is the best as it provides incredible airborne mobility but Solar for Warlock is overall the weakest class and also the target acquisition of the flame trails is still somewhat bad, though they did receive a slight buff a while back. But the Super STILL suffers from the user being super weak while it is in use. Winter's Wrath avoids this problem somewhat as anyone who's trying to shoot you will get frozen but Stasis is also a somewhat weak subclass compared to Void and Arc on Warlock though not by much. Do other Roaming Supers on other classes have these issues. Short answer, no they don't. Long answer, for Hunters, Golden Gun does leave them weak but is an instakill with no projectile travel time unlike Daybreak. Arc Staff allows you to negate all incoming damage, completely eliminating this problem, and Spectral Blades turns the user invisible. Also Hunters retain mobility during their supers which warlocks lack in the first place. Well what about Titans? Sentinel Shield, again, allows the caster to negate all incoming damage, Burning Maul has decent mobility and Fists of Havoc alongside Glacial Quake also have alright mobility. But what the Titan Supers lack in mobility they make up for because the casters are virtually unkillable while the Super is in use as the damage resistance stat gets jacked up to overdrive for Burning Maul, Fists of Havoc, and especially Glacial Quake. See the problem. Warlock Supers leave the user far too vulnerable as the user gets none of the benefits of mobility like a Hunter does and nowhere near the damage reduction Titans do. This is truly awful in the roaming Super meta we have seen in the past few years

And that's it. That's my comprehensive explanation of why Warlocks need desperate help to remain relevant in the current PvP meta. You may ask, "If I think Warlocks suck in PvP so bad why not either not play PvP or use a Hunter/Titan?" The answers to those questions are simple. I don't want to be relegated to not playing part of the game's content simply because of the class I chose and I also don't want to spend hours grinding on a separate character to sue solely for PvP, as I'm sure many others don't because that's ridiculous. I encourage and welcome y'all's thoughts on this, but needed to get this out of my system. Could be way off-base but I really don't think I am. Apologies for any formatting or grammatical errors/inconsistencies.

"Penumbral Blast is only useful because of stasis freeze because again it does not one hit."
You simply have to walk up to them and melee them again as the damage from the Melee and the Stasis Shatter will one shot, or you could just, Y'Know, shoot them.

"Hunters have there knives, titans have claps and shoulder charges, all of these one hit combatants."

Hunter Knives don't 1 Shot unless it's a Head Shot(or if you have the damage buff from Athrys's Embrace, which only effects Weighted Knife"), The Shoulder Charges can't One Shot(Unless you are wearing Peregrine Greaves. Or if you're on the Void Subclass using Controlled Demolition.).

"Warlocks have 0 and I do mean 0 one hit melees across all subclasses no matter how you build it."
The Arc Melee Aspect for Warlocks, Lightning Surge, allows you to one shot Melee.

"Compounding this issue is that Warlocks have a slower uncharged melee than all other classes."

No they don't, this was an old bug that has since been fixed.

"Hunters get a dodge that grants them a few precious frames of invulnerability"

Hunters dodging in the middle of a firefight just makes them a sitting duck, it doesn't matter how many I Frames you give them, they'll die the moment they pop out of that animation.

"and can reload they're weapons/turn them invisible."

Only Reloads if they're using marksman dodge, only turns them Invis if they're using the Vanishing Step Void Aspect, which even then doesn't help much since every 3 seconds they're Invis they get pinged on the Radar, and being Invis doesn't really provide much of an advantage depending on the map and depending on the Hunter.

"in PvP Titans get a literal barricade that they cannot be shot through and also can grant them overheals. "

Titan barricades can easily be broken or just out right ignored, especially if you use any sort of Anti-Barrier champion mod as that increases the damage the weapon does to Titan Shields in PvP, or just throw a grenade that has a massive AoE, forcing them away from their Shield and giving you a good chance to push in.
Only Titans using the Void Aspect Bastion can get an Overshield, and funnily enough all Warlock Healing Rifts grant an overshield, so Warlocks aren't so Innocent in this matter.

"Warlock jumps are slowwwwww."

Now that's just an out right Lie, a Warlock using Burst Glide can speed around the map in an instant and if they're using Icarus Dash, can get around even faster.

"The Supers for Warlock suck in PvP"

In the right hands literally all the supers can absolutely destroy teams in PvP, some of them don't even need to be in the right hands you can just press your super key and get multiple kills, and any of the roaming supers are just good because of their immense Damage Resistance.

[DayOfTheDead2]

Nguyên văn bởi Pasta:

Nguyên văn bởi DayOfTheDead2:

Seriously. This has become so much of an issue that it's really hard to ignore now. And I get that when it comes to PvE content Warlocks are undisputed champs. Well of Radiance is basically required in GM content and since the introduction of Void and Arc 3.0 those subclasses have become absolutely killer in PvE with Arc Jolts and Void having tons of Devour and Weaken/Suppression synergies.

But this is about PvP. In crucible, Warlocks are god-awful, bordering on unusable. There's a reason why in PvP you see pretty much exclusively Titans and Hunters these days. Let's start with melee abilities. Warlocks have 0 and I do mean 0 one hit melees across all subclasses no matter how you build it. And yes, we do have ranged melee abilities all of which, excluding Penumbral Blast are useless. Penumbral Blast is only useful because of stasis freeze because again it does not one hit. Hunters have there knives, titans have claps and shoulder charges, all of these one hit combatants. Compounding this issue is that Warlocks have a slower uncharged melee than all other classes. Which results in an automatic loss anytime you are engaged in a slap fight as a warlock. Now, to "compensate" Bungie gave us and an additional 1m of lunge distance, which in practice often does absolutely nothing at all because even with element of surprise you will often just get slapped twice even if you hit first. Also the lunge can and will mess up some charged melees by throwing the player too far ahead, though I've seen this less in recent years. But overall, Warlock melees suck in PvP. They're really good for clearing ads in PvE, but awful in PvP because they lack any capability to one hit opponents.

Next is class abilities. These probably don't need anything changed but the annoyance they bring compounds with other problems. in PvP Titans get a literal barricade that they cannot be shot through and also can grant them overheals. Hunters get a dodge that grants them a few precious frames of invulnerability, allows them to move into cover, and can reload they're weapons/turn them invisible. Warlocks get, a circle that heals or boosts damage and range. The healing effect is slow enough that you can be killed while inside of it which is a problem not found in the Titan barricades. The empowering rift is good at what it does but strips away mobility forcing you to play more statically while granting no survivability. The only good side benefit of rifts is that Arc rifts grant arc souls which can help in firefights. Void rifts grant the vampirism orb but the utility of that is close to none in PvP. This means rifts really can only be used in cover, which I suppose is fine. Do I think rifts should be altered? No, they're at the correct place balancing-wise. But with rifts being designed the way they are alongside everything else about Warlocks being weak in PvP, it really just adds to an already massive problem.

The jump effects. They're awful. Trying to move around as a Warlock is like holding a massive "Please have this free kill!" sign. Warlock jumps are slowwwwww. Not a problem in of itself but it again provides annoyance when other aspects of the Warlock kit are weak. I hear the comments now, "Just use Blink," or 'what about Heat Rises?" Blink is only available in the void subclass. For what reason this is I cannot fathom and I still wonder why it has not been made available for all classes. It's a weird leftover quirk of the old subclass trees. But if you don't run void, no Blink for you. Heat Rises faces a similar problem in that it is only available in the Solar subclass. Granted nearly all Solar warlocks will use this aspect for it's mobility but it also consumes other utility. Oh, and if you're using Arc or Stasis, you're at out of luck. Is Blink really good? Yes. Does Heat Rises negate the mobility issue? Again Yes. But no other class is forced to make trade-offs or run particular classes just to have a usable jump. It's a minor thing but it again really just piles onto the other issues.

Finally, the Supers. The Supers for Warlock suck in PvP the only exception being Well of Radiance because it is hard to say that an automatic unkillable zone is underpowered. But if we look across the board the Supers are pretty universally terrible. In Void we have two fire and forget Supers and one roaming super. The Nova Bomb variants are basically just a free kill Super. Not bad by any means, but they benefit from having a team grouped up which rarely will happen in PvP. The Vortex Nova Bomb also serves some area denial and the Cataclysm Nova Bomb helps alleviate the need for enemies to be so closely knit but both are still fairly underwhelming as opposed to say Thundercrash or Shadowshot. Thundercrash suffers from the same necessity to have players be tight-knit but at least provides mobility and can be somewhat more usable with it's exotic(though that is another large issue). Shadowshot has tethers which apply suppression and also allow for more frags on the cleanup after the Super is fired. Gathering Storm at least provides a long period of area denial while still having the one shot effect. I'll get into the roaming super later. Arc has two Supers. Both suck. again I'll talk about Stormtrance in a second but Chaos Reach is truly awful. It deals such little damage and also leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a significant period of time. Yes it can be used well, but it really isn't all that powerful. We've already talked about Well of Radiance and I'll get into Daybreak in a second. Winter's Wrath is very usable and works very well just as all Stasis Supers do. but it has the same problem as all roaming supers on Warlock do. The main issue that no other roaming super for other classes really does. It's too easy to get killed while using it. Nova Warp suffers the least from this as you get to teleport somewhat frequently the trade-off being the Super has little range. However the cooldown is extraordinarily long at nine minutes and 6 seconds. Stormtrance is laughable. It's teleport has too long a cooldown leading to most Stormtrance kills resulting from the landfall ability upon activation. Daybreak is the best as it provides incredible airborne mobility but Solar for Warlock is overall the weakest class and also the target acquisition of the flame trails is still somewhat bad, though they did receive a slight buff a while back. But the Super STILL suffers from the user being super weak while it is in use. Winter's Wrath avoids this problem somewhat as anyone who's trying to shoot you will get frozen but Stasis is also a somewhat weak subclass compared to Void and Arc on Warlock though not by much. Do other Roaming Supers on other classes have these issues. Short answer, no they don't. Long answer, for Hunters, Golden Gun does leave them weak but is an instakill with no projectile travel time unlike Daybreak. Arc Staff allows you to negate all incoming damage, completely eliminating this problem, and Spectral Blades turns the user invisible. Also Hunters retain mobility during their supers which warlocks lack in the first place. Well what about Titans? Sentinel Shield, again, allows the caster to negate all incoming damage, Burning Maul has decent mobility and Fists of Havoc alongside Glacial Quake also have alright mobility. But what the Titan Supers lack in mobility they make up for because the casters are virtually unkillable while the Super is in use as the damage resistance stat gets jacked up to overdrive for Burning Maul, Fists of Havoc, and especially Glacial Quake. See the problem. Warlock Supers leave the user far too vulnerable as the user gets none of the benefits of mobility like a Hunter does and nowhere near the damage reduction Titans do. This is truly awful in the roaming Super meta we have seen in the past few years

And that's it. That's my comprehensive explanation of why Warlocks need desperate help to remain relevant in the current PvP meta. You may ask, "If I think Warlocks suck in PvP so bad why not either not play PvP or use a Hunter/Titan?" The answers to those questions are simple. I don't want to be relegated to not playing part of the game's content simply because of the class I chose and I also don't want to spend hours grinding on a separate character to sue solely for PvP, as I'm sure many others don't because that's ridiculous. I encourage and welcome y'all's thoughts on this, but needed to get this out of my system. Could be way off-base but I really don't think I am. Apologies for any formatting or grammatical errors/inconsistencies.

"Penumbral Blast is only useful because of stasis freeze because again it does not one hit."
You simply have to walk up to them and melee them again as the damage from the Melee and the Stasis Shatter will one shot, or you could just, Y'Know, shoot them.

"Hunters have there knives, titans have claps and shoulder charges, all of these one hit combatants."

Hunter Knives don't 1 Shot unless it's a Head Shot(or if you have the damage buff from Athrys's Embrace, which only effects Weighted Knife"), The Shoulder Charges can't One Shot(Unless you are wearing Peregrine Greaves. Or if you're on the Void Subclass using Controlled Demolition.).

"Warlocks have 0 and I do mean 0 one hit melees across all subclasses no matter how you build it."
The Arc Melee Aspect for Warlocks, Lightning Surge, allows you to one shot Melee.

"Compounding this issue is that Warlocks have a slower uncharged melee than all other classes."

No they don't, this was an old bug that has since been fixed.

"Hunters get a dodge that grants them a few precious frames of invulnerability"

Hunters dodging in the middle of a firefight just makes them a sitting duck, it doesn't matter how many I Frames you give them, they'll die the moment they pop out of that animation.

"and can reload they're weapons/turn them invisible."

Only Reloads if they're using marksman dodge, only turns them Invis if they're using the Vanishing Step Void Aspect, which even then doesn't help much since every 3 seconds they're Invis they get pinged on the Radar, and being Invis doesn't really provide much of an advantage depending on the map and depending on the Hunter.

"in PvP Titans get a literal barricade that they cannot be shot through and also can grant them overheals. "

Titan barricades can easily be broken or just out right ignored, especially if you use any sort of Anti-Barrier champion mod as that increases the damage the weapon does to Titan Shields in PvP, or just throw a grenade that has a massive AoE, forcing them away from their Shield and giving you a good chance to push in.
Only Titans using the Void Aspect Bastion can get an Overshield, and funnily enough all Warlock Healing Rifts grant an overshield, so Warlocks aren't so Innocent in this matter.

"Warlock jumps are slowwwwww."

Now that's just an out right Lie, a Warlock using Burst Glide can speed around the map in an instant and if they're using Icarus Dash, can get around even faster.

"The Supers for Warlock suck in PvP"

In the right hands literally all the supers can absolutely destroy teams in PvP, some of them don't even need to be in the right hands you can just press your super key and get multiple kills, and any of the roaming supers are just good because of their immense Damage Resistance.

Here's the issue:
"I'm a Warlock and I want mobility" Use Solar with Icarus Dash or Void with Blink
"I'm a Warlock and I want damage resitance" too ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad.
"Ok so if Hunters get mobility and Titans get damage resistance which are both useful in PvP what do I get as a trade-off for not having those things?" Literally nothing. Nothing at all. Cry. Your sustainability buffs only chain properly in PvE with a lot of ads to get them started so you can go ahead and forget about them working in PvP literally any of the time.

"The all supers are good" argument holds no weight. All the guns in the game can kill too. There's still a reason nobody runs some of them, it's because they're worse. I'm not saying Warlock roaming Supers are bad I am saying they are worse than the roaming Supers of all other classes. That's true, it's reflected in the pick rate.

The "Warlock melees being slow is a bug" is not true. Originally, when the game released, they were slower but provided no benefit making them worse with no trade-off. To correct this, Bungie gave them an additional 1m of lunge distance, they did not change the speed. Also Prenumbral Blast being the one case of a melee that will net a kill does not solve all the other ones being bad. Yeah Arc Warlocks can get that one hit by using a fragment slot. All other classes get multiple options for one hits or at least an option for a one hit on every subclass. You wanna one hit as a void or solar warlock. Too bad. You don't get to. There is no exotic or aspect to make it happen. Other classes get the option. Warlocks however, don't.

Warlock jumps provide linear movement speed. They however leave you a sitting duck in the air for long periods of time. Especially when trying to make a jump to a different vertical level, an issue that has since been made even worse with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ airborne effectiveness introduction.

Yes Warlock rifts provide overhealing. They do not block incoming damage and the healing effect is slow. Do the rifts suck? No I literally pointed out that they were fine but a source of annoyance. Especially with a ridiculous windup animation that often results in you getting killed while trying to activate it under stress. As a result they can only be used after retreating to cover. Also Hunter dodges aren't usually haphazardly used mid firefight in the open. They're used to move into cover. You can't point out a scenario of them being used poorly and then state that it means they aren't that good. Also the ridiculousness of pointing out what exactly is needed for them to do each interaction. "They only reload in marksman dodge." OK? I said they can do it, not that they always do it why are you pointing out the mechanic. I know it. I'm assuming people who read the post will know it. You're not proving anything you're just attempting to talk down to me and act as if you know more for some reason. It's weird, don't do that.