Increase Damage for Hawkmoon, and Rework the perk.

[Snow Miser]

Hawkmoon is kind of disappointing, it requires you to consistently hit head-shots in order to get it up to 7x stacks of paracausal charge. In PvP the thing isn't an option due to 120's being naturally superior, and the sights being a little bit icky sometimes. They should buff the damage lower stacks do, and the perk should remain until you reload your weapon (So the catalyst is actually useful besides the 9th round)

In PvE it's an OK option, however compared to things like Outbreak, Anarchy, Ace, DMT, Xeno, Witherhoard, etc, there's 0 reason whatsoever to use it sadly, I personally believe it should have the perk reworked: Buff the magazine to 11, have the perk consume all remaining rounds when you reach 7x OR you hold R to use the amount of charges you have currently, and do damage. You still hunt out the precision hits/kills to get the charge, but it's more forgiving.

[Snow Miser]

Lmao, using data that suits you huh?

[Snow Miser]

Kethriss eredeti hozzászólása:

Alright you know literally nothing about this subject.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I did 109k damage to Sepiks prime on Hero Nightfall less than 30 minutes ago.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I do ~80-90k to the bosses in Battlegrounds.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I do ~70-80k to the bosses in Pit of Heresy.

Those boss damages go up to 120k or more with the buffs you are talking about. The only time I've done 60-70k is against Raid Bosses in DSC. And congrats, IB is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sniper rifle. You going to add clear with a sniper rifle and then 1-shot minibosses? No, you aren't, because you'll run out of ammo especially if youre using its exotic effect. So not only does IB only really have use as a dps tool for big targets, and absolutely it is a much better option for raw DPS against a single boss target, Hawkmoon can get close to its burst while simultaneously being a multi-use primary for add clear, can keep up consistent damage, uses light ammo and so will always be full, and only asks that you do the absolute bare minimum in terms of accuracy.

How... how in the hell did you do 100k damage to the nightfall boss? Oh! you mean the spider thing don't you? Well yes, it can do 100k damage... around 103k, however what do Izanagi's, Outbreak, Whisper, Xeno, and hell, even malfeasence do? more damage... And get this, a single mag of hawkmoon does around... I want to say 110k worth of damage to the boss? Malfeasence on the other hand, does nearly 153k when you add both shots, and slug detonated. Here's my Math: So, on the spider you do 4560 per shot of damage with the Malfeasence per shot right? just the bullet, now it takes 5 bullets to detonate all of the slugs in there, and each donation takes roughly 3110 in damage no? So, for 5 detonations and rounds, you get 38,350 in damage for 5 rounds on a 180, times that by 4 (entire mag) and you get... a woping 153,400 in damage for the entire mag... So, while hawkmoon does 146k damage against the spider (5563 per shot, and 102305 for the final shot, or 96,742 bonus to the final shot) for the total mag. Now yes, Izanagi's burden does slightly less for that in a single mag, however the Izanagi's Burden will be much faster due to you not having to rack up 7 precision hits. Everything was done on a heroic nightfall, with the spider boss (as you did your comparison :P) with 0 bonuses, not well, no charged with light mods, and it was against the spider boss in his "knocked" form. Yeah, I guess I really "Know literally nothing" about this subject

No, imagine this, I'm going to use a ENERGY KENETIC WEAPON, for example: I like to pair Izanagi's Burden with Mida Mini Tool, I personally believe Mida is underrated for add clear, once you put on "Mantle Of Battle Harmony" with some Charged with light mods (for damage, and recharge... Swift charge arc special mod to be exact) makes it a super damaging, high fire rate mob destroyer... I'm taking a VERY, I MEAN ABSOLUTELY impulsive guess here, but you're gonna say "Well, I'll just put Salvo with my Hawkmoon" but then it would debunk the "Decent for adclear Argument" when you compared it to Izanagi's, yes, Izanagi's is not good for ad clearing, if it was, then it wouldn't be good for boss damage... How hard is this to realize? Hawkmoon is pretty trash for ad clear too, it only has 9 rounds, and the perk relies on constant precision hits/kills, so in high level content that perk won't come in handy often, and when it does... it only begs the question of "Why not use a weapon that has objectively better DPS then me?" during usage.

I don't really see ammo as a problem, considering that ammo finder mods and raid banners exist, I think that's a faulty argument. While yes, it's nice to have a high burst damage primary ammo weapon, it doesn't really add anything when you're doing high boss health damage for like a raid or something, because you've probably gotten enough ammo for your heavy weapons. A good perk, but you're overestimating the helpfulness of it.

I'll also mention my disgust for the cherry picking data, you literally took the parts where Hawkmoon preforms the best, and didn't account for other parts, thanks. Now, about that "you're wanting hawkmoon to be OP thing" No, that's not even REMOTELY true, here's what I'm suggesting: Increase the damage for LOWER stacks, meaning that their'll be less punishment when you miss your shots, so you don't need to line up nine of the milkyway's planets up to get halfway decent damage. 2nd suggestion, make the perk a little more easier to maximize, meaning, That the perk should be more Forgiving. I've mention this up top, they should make the perk activate at the USERS's WILL, instead of it always relying on the last shot. Let's say you have 4 stacks after 3 or so kills, you can hold R to consume those stacks into 1 shot, shoot it, and reload after kill/damage. And! stacks stay when you reload your gun, and automatically consume ALL of the ammo in your gun for 1 high damage shot, I believe this will make the gun more viable in PvP despite the 120 meta. Will barely have an effect in PvE.

Kethriss eredeti hozzászólása:

As for the catalyst, just stop talking. It increases the magazine size so now you can get more charges, and the bonuses increase based on how many charges you have up to and including on the final shot, meaning the more precision hits you land, the easier it becomes to land them to the point that the final hit practically aims itself. If you think it's useless you objectively have no idea how it works.

Outbreak does not come close to the amount of DPS you can put out on a target with Hawkmoon unless you're atrocious with landing precision hits with a hand cannon. Sunshot sees more use because the current meta makes it one of the most disgusting add clear weapons in the game and doesn't require you to run a weekly mission to get a good roll on it.

Your entire issue here is that you're bad at chaining precision hits and so you can't get the most use out of an amazing PvE tool, and so you want it to be reworked in to what will make it the single most dominant weapon in the entire game outside of competitive modes, and in fact will make it dominant even in PvP due to your changes essentially turning it in to the ultimate competitive hand cannon that will obliterate even ulting titans with minimal effort.

Hawkmoon's use is a slightly above-average skill floor add clear weapon where you chain kills on adds and use the big shot to one-tap minibosses and then utilize more shot chaining to brute force bosses. Nothing else in the game has its ability to both add clear, keep its ammo reserves full, and burst heavy targets. Are there better add clear weapons? yes. Sunshot is one of them but it doesnt have the burst damage. Are there better burst damage weapons? Yes. Izanagi's is one of them, but it doesn't have the ability to add clear. Hawkmoon gives you something that is amazing at doing both these things in exchange for simply asking you to land headshots with it, and if you can't consistently land headshots then your skill level is nowhere near enough to be trying to comment on the state of balance on weapons that require even basic precision.

I'll break this into parts, or try my best.

1). The Catalyst is aimed towards PvP use, however it also begs the question of "Why would the original perk exist then?" Considering that you need to have 3-4 charges worth of paracausal to actually have an effect on your weapon, not to mention how multiple 140 handcannons ALREADY come with something like surplus, or the elemental thing. So, what's the point of the Catalyst then? It's literally contradicting the perk! what use is it to me, when I could just stow my handcannon, or have Surplus on it... It's laughable really, seeing a catalyst just contradict a perk in such a... inconceivably ridiculous fashion. That's why they should change the catalyst, let's say... Paracausal discharge, "after firing your CHARGED final round, you get a bonus to Reloading speed. The more charges you have fired off, the more bonus of reload speed you get." Meaning that you'll be able to have Higher DPS in a temporary damage stage like the spider or tankis, where the perk is actually useful, instead of contradicting. Let's also mention how the EXTRA round is somewhat of a setback in terms of "I'm shooting the boss for precision damage, and nobody is bothering me" stages, it actually sets you back a round, meaning it'll take longer to do damage, less DPS. And we've already discussed AD clear.

2). Yesn't? In a single mag per say, yes. You would be correct. However! Let's take our spider friend again, you shoot outbreak at his legs, rack up those precision manite things, and then he goes into "Knocked" stage. You then go over, and shoot his weak spot. That would rack up more damage then Hawkmoon by... let's just say a lot. So sir, you are misleading at best, a truth, but without truth.

3). Oh really? Yes, that's the problem! Because I was chaining up 8 precision hits for less damage then 2 rounds of 4x Izanagi's, I must be bad! Ho lord help me! "Snap back to reality" You're going through all this, for less damage... It's not that I'm having trouble chaining precision hits, it's that I'm not getting enough out of it to justify my actions, when I could easily use something the REWARDS my chained precision hits for GOOD damage, like Herritage, Izanagi's, Outbreak, etc. That's my problem, High skill for low reward, why use a gun that requires more skill for less damage, then a gun that has less skill, AND higher damage? Doesn't make sense...

4). Yes, and as I've discussed with number 3, it requires high skill, for low reward. However on that "Minibosses" part, it doesn't really do good damage when compared to something like Izanagi's, IB can easily 1 shot barrier champions when they put their shield up, while when you stun an unstoppable and rack up precision charges, you don't get to 1 shot him... Seems unfair right? So, I've had to stun, rack up precision hits, and shoot 1 bullet that BARELY get's him to finisher, all during the short time that he happened to be stun... While IB on the other hand goes smoother, Do damage before, Precision the champ, and it's done! easy, simple, ka-put! Again, we've talked about how OTHER WEAPONS happen to exist, and putting a AD clear weapon would visibly make Hawkmoon much worse than IB, and losing the only 2 edges Hawkmoon has over IB.

6/10 Argument, Cherry picked data, called me an idiot despite OP having more hours on BOTH platforms, and overall wasted 1h of his time on nightfalls. Pro's: He got "THE SWARM" (No caps are against the law!) with outlaw and tap the trigger, however it had a handling masterwork... big sad!

[Snow Miser]

Point and Case: Hawkmoon is Hawkmeh, High skill for Low reward begs the question of: "Why use this, when it's easier to use a much more rewarding weapon?'

[Anti Homeless Rock]

I like it as is, no need to change it

[Snow Miser]

Kethriss eredeti hozzászólása:

Literally everything you said is wrong, there's no argument to be had here. You are wrong. End of discussion. Sorry.

no... nothing "fact based" was wrong, maybe my opinion is wrong, but I personally went out at 4pm and got those damage numbers for you, on the heroic nightfall.

Can't blame you for not responding though, that is quite the wall of text I created there. Here's a list of where I'm not wrong:
1). Malfeansce does more damage per mag then hawkmon does with it's ability,
2). Izanagi's Burden can oneshot champions, whereas hawkmoon can't.
3). Outbreak (over time) does better damage than Hawkmoon,
4). You did cherrypick data
5). The final round is a setback when in damage stages
6). All listed weapons DO more damage then hawkmoon
7). I know something about Hawkmoon
8). Made me waste an hour damage testing on Nightfalls
9). The catalyst is aimed towards PvP use
10). Every number up there is correct

[Bluemenkranz]

Kethriss eredeti hozzászólása:

Snow Miser eredeti hozzászólása:

Alrighty, a little fact check for you here: It doesn't do 100k damage, UNLESS! you have: A well, 1 charged with light mods, and 7 charges, and a divinity. Your required to be a warlock, have the available charged of light mods, gather 7 charges of paracausal without any misfires, and on top of that have another exotic... wonderful! And even if you run a team of 5 hawkmoons vs tankis (For example) You'll only get him halfway, come that to list exotics above and... you can see the major difference. Fun fact: Izanagi's Burden does nearly 2x the damage with the listed damage requirements above, at 138k.

At 7 stacks of charges, you do roughly 74k damage against a boss, at 6 charges you do... 47k worth of damage, without mods. Meanwhile, the Izanagi's burden (catalyst) does 124k without the charged of light mods. Meaning, that the Izanagi's Burden (Catalyst) does a MUCH better job at damage, while it takes you longer to rack up those precision charges for launching that one shot on the hawkmoon, you could probably get 1 1/2 of an Izanagi's Burden 4x for better damage. Let's also mention how the Catalyst is COMPLETELY USELESS due to the perk deactivating on the last shot... meaning you won't get a stability, handling, or reload bonus once you fire that last shot.

It NEEDS to be more forgiving, it requires you to hunt out 7 precision hits/kills with a 140 handcannon that over relies on hand cannon aim assist, and will make it near useless if you miss ONE (JUST ONE) of those shots, when you have much superior options to go with, like heritage, Izanagi's, Outbreak, and hell even DMT is better due to it being forgiving, and having decent damage once you get those stacks up. It doesn't even 1 shot champions for christ's sake, you need to bring along an extra slug to finish them off.

So, in the end we have a handcannon that (currently) has less usage this season than sunshot in PvE, despite it being a PvE based weapon that has inferior damage to multiple exotics that could replace it. A handcannon that require you to be pretty much perfect in order to do decent damage, Has you over rely on aim assist to be halfway decent... yeah, that's "Disgusting PvE Exotic" for you!

Alright you know literally nothing about this subject.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I did 109k damage to Sepiks prime on Hero Nightfall less than 30 minutes ago.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I do ~80-90k to the bosses in Battlegrounds.

At 7 stacks with no buffs, no light charge, no well, nothing, I do ~70-80k to the bosses in Pit of Heresy.

Those boss damages go up to 120k or more with the buffs you are talking about. The only time I've done 60-70k is against Raid Bosses in DSC. And congrats, IB is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sniper rifle. You going to add clear with a sniper rifle and then 1-shot minibosses? No, you aren't, because you'll run out of ammo especially if youre using its exotic effect. So not only does IB only really have use as a dps tool for big targets, and absolutely it is a much better option for raw DPS against a single boss target, Hawkmoon can get close to its burst while simultaneously being a multi-use primary for add clear, can keep up consistent damage, uses light ammo and so will always be full, and only asks that you do the absolute bare minimum in terms of accuracy.

As for the catalyst, just stop talking. It increases the magazine size so now you can get more charges, and the bonuses increase based on how many charges you have up to and including on the final shot, meaning the more precision hits you land, the easier it becomes to land them to the point that the final hit practically aims itself. If you think it's useless you objectively have no idea how it works.

Outbreak does not come close to the amount of DPS you can put out on a target with Hawkmoon unless you're atrocious with landing precision hits with a hand cannon. Sunshot sees more use because the current meta makes it one of the most disgusting add clear weapons in the game and doesn't require you to run a weekly mission to get a good roll on it.

Your entire issue here is that you're bad at chaining precision hits and so you can't get the most use out of an amazing PvE tool, and so you want it to be reworked in to what will make it the single most dominant weapon in the entire game outside of competitive modes, and in fact will make it dominant even in PvP due to your changes essentially turning it in to the ultimate competitive hand cannon that will obliterate even ulting titans with minimal effort.

Hawkmoon's use is a slightly above-average skill floor add clear weapon where you chain kills on adds and use the big shot to one-tap minibosses and then utilize more shot chaining to brute force bosses. Nothing else in the game has its ability to both add clear, keep its ammo reserves full, and burst heavy targets. Are there better add clear weapons? yes. Sunshot is one of them but it doesnt have the burst damage. Are there better burst damage weapons? Yes. Izanagi's is one of them, but it doesn't have the ability to add clear. Hawkmoon gives you something that is amazing at doing both these things in exchange for simply asking you to land headshots with it, and if you can't consistently land headshots then your skill level is nowhere near enough to be trying to comment on the state of balance on weapons that require even basic precision.

Sepiks isn't a boss btw, it counts as a Major, check the numbers Wardcliff and Eyes puts out against it

[Marcie]

My only issue with hawkmoon and by proxy Deadmans too is that you NEED to farm a perfect EXOTIC WEAPON...y'know, exotic weapons, weapons that are always the same no matter what to make them unique...kinda makes them feel like legendary weapons but more restricting

[Snow Miser]

Leliel eredeti hozzászólása:

Sepiks isn't a boss btw, it counts as a Major, check the numbers Wardcliff and Eyes puts out against it

we're not comparing on that, we're comparing on the spider outside of his lair... Stop abuse on the 8 ball!

[Snow Miser]

Kethriss eredeti hozzászólása:

1) -Malf requires every shot be landed on the same target, no exceptions.
2) -IB is a sniper rifle, stop comparing it.
3) -OBP requires a long span of time to outpace HM and has no 1 tap potential on anything.
4) - No, I didb't
5) - If you're bad at the game sure.
6) - Under different circumstances under their hyper specific situations in which they are niche optimal with non of the versatility.
7) - No, you don't.
8) - And you still just confirmation bias ignored all context.
9) - Never said it wasn't, and as I said in PvE it effectively results in the final shot aiming itself.
10) - No, they aren't.

1). So... So does hawkmoon? Didn't really think that one out....
2). Yes, It's also a burst damaging primary slot weapon, that's made for Burst damage... just like hawkmoon, it's also a better choice for exotics. Or! you could use Outbreak which is more efficient.
3). Not really, waste your mag on the legs, then shoot the crit spot... not that hard friend, also, Hawkmoon doesn't have a 1 tap potential on Minibosses either... imagine that! also, you're rewarded for the skill you put into kills.
4). Yes you did, you used the highest damage examples from each and every example you gave me, You didn't mention how hawkmoon does 59k WITH 7 stacks, full bore, opening shot on the Main boss (although there has been challenges as to what he really is)
5). "If I'm bad at game" What in the hell does that mean? I'm saying when shooting straight at tankis, you'll have to shoot 1 more round before you can pop that cacaw off.
6). No, all of them Raw, Modded, or Maximum damage potential do better damage then hawkmoon.
7). Yes, I do, considering I have 1k kills on a fresh hawkmoon, more hours then you on both platforms, and damage numbers? I think I win little noob.
8). What Context? You used the example of the spider on the nightfall, and I decided to use it to... there's no additional context that needs to be added.
9). Reminder: You have to hit 7 additional crit shots for it to work...
10). What is POSSIBLY incorrect? I've tested it myself, went out, killed that boss 10 times! 10 damn times! AND YET YOU NEED TO INSIST THAT SOME NUMBERS ARE WRONG, WITHOUT LISTING THE DAMN NUMBERS!

5/10 argument, you've disappointed me.

[Shikikan]

lol no, I have won trials games off of 1 tapping someone with a charged Hawkmoon shot. Thing is nice.

[SonicFusion]

This thread will now be locked as it's reached its peak. Please be respectful with replies.