encirclement on the Eastern front

[Twogun]

so i've been researching this game, and i like what i see.

but one concern i have is, are tactics on the eastern front at all historic?

by that i mean, when i read AARs or look at screen shots, it seems more of a static slug fest than a war of maneuver.

is this accurate?

[Kraken Studios]

If you are hoping for sheer incompetence on the part of the Russians, than no because there is hindsight.

But generally there are. This is a multihex attack game. Depends on the players

[Dorian Gray]

It's a multi-round slug-fest. Doesn't help that practically every city on eastern front is an infinite source of supply for Soviets.

So, whatever pockets you formed the previous turn makes no difference on the follow up turns. Be prepared to spend next turns smashing them, but suddenly become near invulnerable to retreats. Have to slug it out at near exchange-level losses anyways.

(this is kinda sad, but it is easier to get enemy to retreat if you do not surround them. as soon as you cut them off, suddenly they morph into elite soviet guards that fight to the last man and take all your OP points to finally kill them)

This is like the opposite of the classic breakthrough & exploitation that took place on the Eastern Front.

You get no benefit from attacking from multi-hexes (i.e. Ardennes Offensive from SSG).

Practically every Soviet city provides infinite supply and is a mini-fortress in the making.

If you do happen, through some bizarre strange luck, to surround a pocket of soviets that is NOT on an infinite supply source, it takes THREE turns for them to run out of supply. ( like you can wait 3 turns to finish off a pocket?)

Even SPI's "War in the East", with weekly turns, only required 1 turn.


You basically just slug it out with the opponent, pounding them through a series of near exchange-level CRT combat results. Game feels more like WW1 than 2.

[Twogun]

dorian, aren't you a big time troll? didn't we go thru this on the dominions forum?

or am i thinking of someone else?

if what you are saying is accurate, i'd probably not purchase the game. but i have no idea if i can trust you.

[Kraken Studios]

Encirclement works. What he is saying is correct about cities. But once you encircle any group of units it becomes easier to force them to surrender or shatter. If they have no retreat path that is the case.

Remember this is a corps level game. Breakthroughs do happen. But players also have hindsight to history. They won't make the same mistakes.

Almost every player I know who has played World in Flames, Advanced Third Reich, SPI's ETO/PTO enjoys the game. It has a very strong following and mods available.
As for closed off cities this is something on my list of ideas that I have to think about how to implement correctly for game mechanics and play. I just can't do it because it could break some mechanics. I take a long time thinking before I change a game mechanics. Also this is hard to implement in a computer wargame as the number of checks I have to makes grows exponentially slowing down end of turn routines.

@Dorian - I thought you didn't like the game and gave up on it? I saw your negative review. Sorry you don't like the game. I strongly suggest playing multiplayer. Last I checked there were over 115 games running. Multiplayer is really the best way to play. Each player has an amazing capacity to play a different style that adds to the game tremendously. Every different person I play I have to adjust my strategy.

@Twogun - I could be wrong but I think Steam has a try before you buy. I'd double check. Watch some videos, go on the Matrix forums and ask this question there. You will get a lot of answers from different opinions. Already the Pacific is in the works. I wouldn't make the Pacific if the game didn't do well. And if you are over 50 and grew up on the board games you will like it. A lot of the players are older players. It has "mostly positive" reviews already so I am doing something right.

[beltsman]

Originally posted by Alvaro Sousa:

Encirclement works. What he is saying is correct about cities. But once you encircle any group of units it becomes easier to force them to surrender or shatter. If they have no retreat path that is the case.

Remember this is a corps level game. Breakthroughs do happen. But players also have hindsight to history. They won't make the same mistakes.

Almost every player I know who has played World in Flames, Advanced Third Reich, SPI's ETO/PTO enjoys the game. It has a very strong following and mods available.
As for closed off cities this is something on my list of ideas that I have to think about how to implement correctly for game mechanics and play. I just can't do it because it could break some mechanics. I take a long time thinking before I change a game mechanics. Also this is hard to implement in a computer wargame as the number of checks I have to makes grows exponentially slowing down end of turn routines.

@Dorian - I thought you didn't like the game and gave up on it? I saw your negative review. Sorry you don't like the game. I strongly suggest playing multiplayer. Last I checked there were over 115 games running. Multiplayer is really the best way to play. Each player has an amazing capacity to play a different style that adds to the game tremendously. Every different person I play I have to adjust my strategy.

@Twogun - I could be wrong but I think Steam has a try before you buy. I'd double check. Watch some videos, go on the Matrix forums and ask this question there. You will get a lot of answers from different opinions. Already the Pacific is in the works. I wouldn't make the Pacific if the game didn't do well. And if you are over 50 and grew up on the board games you will like it. A lot of the players are older players. It has "mostly positive" reviews already so I am doing something right.

Hi,

I love the effort and dedication you have for this. I think I will get the game. But, it does concern me that cities can be unlimited sources of supply, thereby defeating the point of encircling them. I don't know how the game engine works under the hood, but a simple solution could be that cities can only generate supply if they can trace a railroad to their capital?

[Kraken Studios]

Sometimes things that for a board game are easy to implement are very hard in a computer game. Before I introduce anything new I try and figure out how to break it. If I can find easy ways to exploit that system then it is a problem.

For example. Say you invade England and surround but not capture London. Does that mean the rest of the UK is out of supply? Is that fair? Or do the same with Moscow.

I have some ideas that I am thinking about. In fact one that you just gave me.

The issue about encircling cities shouldn't determine if you want or not want to get it. Read the reviews on Matrix Forum. Ask their opinions. It's a try before you buy game I believe. Publisher handles that.

[beltsman]

Originally posted by Kraken:

Sometimes things that for a board game are easy to implement are very hard in a computer game. Before I introduce anything new I try and figure out how to break it. If I can find easy ways to exploit that system then it is a problem.

For example. Say you invade England and surround but not capture London. Does that mean the rest of the UK is out of supply? Is that fair? Or do the same with Moscow.

I have some ideas that I am thinking about. In fact one that you just gave me.

The issue about encircling cities shouldn't determine if you want or not want to get it. Read the reviews on Matrix Forum. Ask their opinions. It's a try before you buy game I believe. Publisher handles that.

Well I think that supply needs to source from somewhere. Look at Advanced Tactics Gold - each city can produce supply, but each city can also have its production destroyed. I think this is the best solution.

[Kraken Studios]

I'm considering a few things at the moment on how best to approach it. Right now I am thinking of implementing 1-5 supply sources per country. 5 for major powers of course, maybe 4 for France. Like Moscow, Leningrad, Urals, Baku, Stalingrad for example.

[Kraken Studios]

Might not be in this coming patch. I have to verify it won't break the game or the A.I.

[Twogun]

it's immensely cool that you are functionally addressing this.

[Kraken Studios]

I have to see if it works in code with how the game is modeled currently and if it works with the game mechanics.

[Twogun]

i understand.

i just am impressed at the effort, no matter the result.

i'm a big fan of small developers, and i despise negativity around their products if everything isn't 'perfect'.

so i tip my cap to you on your diligence and willing to try to improve things.

[Kraken Studios]

Thanks. And I figured it out. It will be in the next beta and if feels good to the open beta testers then it will pass to official.

I do have the luxury of not having to live off my profits. My wife and I both work and we have no debt. Not even a mortgage. So it makes life a lot easier for us. From what I have seen small indie developers have to constantly pump out product if they are working for a living. For some it takes 6-9 months to make a game. Just from what I have seen.

I like to focus on quality that gives me royalties for years. Take my time and build a stack of quality games. Took me 6000 man hours just to get WarPlan from concept to opening day. That's 3 years full time work no pay. Now it should be easier that I have my own game engine to help with future models.

I think indies that think like I do perform well in the market. Like Wizardry has been around forever. Or some other small games.

[Twogun]

my favorite game(by far) is dominons-the whole franchise really.

are you familiar with Illwinter?(the developer of dominions)

they are very much in your situation.

they are currently on dominions5, and every iteration is functionally better. they are progressing just as you describe, constantly honing and enhancing their original engine.

[Kraken Studios]

I was looking at them for study. Currently I am working on Pacific and I am designing a fantasy strategy game that will play very differently than all the others out there. True wargame/RPG element

Dominions looked good.