Questions about ACE3 medical system?

[Dope Pope]

1. What's the difference between adenosine and atropine?

2. Assuming a soldier lost a lot of blood but has his wound treated. Would it be feasible to only administer adenosine (without IV)?

As the adenosine should help prevent cardiac arrest due to low blood volume, he should be able to fight (as long as he doesn't lose anymore blood)

3. What exactly triggers a wound reopening? Is it always decided when you treat the wound? Or does it have a set % of chance to occur when you do certain actions (i.e sprinting)?

4. What exactly is the mechanic behind closing wounds? Do you need to fill a hidden injury meter? i.e a large cut have an injury level of 6, so it would take 3 elastic bandages to close it since each elastic bandage have an efficiency of 2.

5. When you attempt to close a wound with multiple types of bandages, does the last bandage usef dictates reopen chance and reopen timer?

[опытный стрелок]

Adenosine is a medication that can bring your heart back to a normal rhythm. It's an injection that a healthcare provider will give you in a hospital or clinic setting. Brand names of adenosine are Adenocard® and Adenoscan®.
__________________________________________________
ATROPINE (A troe peen) can help treat many conditions. This medicine is used to reduce saliva and fluid in the respiratory tract during surgery. It is also used to treat insecticide or mushroom poisoning. It can be used in an emergency to treat a slow heartbeat.

[Dope Pope]

ArmArknights lähetti viestin:

Adenosine is a medication that can bring your heart back to a normal rhythm. It's an injection that a healthcare provider will give you in a hospital or clinic setting. Brand names of adenosine are Adenocard® and Adenoscan®.
__________________________________________________
ATROPINE (A troe peen) can help treat many conditions. This medicine is used to reduce saliva and fluid in the respiratory tract during surgery. It is also used to treat insecticide or mushroom poisoning. It can be used in an emergency to treat a slow heartbeat.

Right, but i'm asking strictly what they do in game in the ACE3 mod.

[Fly]

Since it's been almost a month and no relevant answers...

My information is probably a bit dated since I haven't been playing the game for almost 3 years now, but as one of the first to write an Arma Ace Medical Triage Manual... I guess I should at least pretend I know something about it. Given that the last change date of the relevant files in ACE date from 5 years ago, that should be possible.

Still, take it with a grain of salt and only 'til someone comes along who has a more up-to-date info for you.

Also note that there is of course the possibility that whoever you're playing with modified ACE so that certain things work differently. We used to have a very active modder who tweaked the living hell out of the ACE system, so you might first want to ask your modder whether something is different in your ACE than it is in the "gospel" ACE. Also note that ever since the mod was created, there were a lot of rumors and voodoo floating about the medical system, so please check whether some of the things you think "should" work really do. Because just because something does something in reality doesn't necessarily mean that it works the same in ACE.

Now for the questions:

1) To my knowledge, there is none. They behave identical. IIRC Atropine was removed at some point and there should only be Adenosine left anymore. At least that's what the source files suggest.

2) The answer to this should be no, but it depends on whether you're dealing with a modified ACE pack. Because adenosine also should not have that desired effect (of waking someone up), all adenosine does in ACE is to lower the blood pressure, at least according to the standard code. Note that all autoinjectors come with 4 values (they come with more, but 4 are relevant in this case): Effect (+/- blood pressure and/or pain suppression), delay 'til max effect, time in system and maximum dose. The maximum dose (i.e. the next one is fatal) for adenosine is 6, the time in system 15. In other words, you could only give 6 doses of adenosine in 15 minutes or the patient croaks. Which he almost certainly will anyway when you lower his blood pressure by the about 90 that will do to him. Are you absolutely, positively and 100% CERTAIN that adenosine has ANY positive effect on whether a patient wakes up? Because I do remember that particulare piece of ACE medical voodoo from the time when I started... and back then at the very least it was a load of bull.

In case you meant whether it's possible to keep people going with Epinephrine, since that pushes the blood pressure levels up... also nope. Whether people go to the black screen mostly depends on the amount of blood in their system (which affects blood pressure, but not only that does). So while you can "push" someone's blood pressure, what you get to see only matters concerning his survival, not his consciousness. Plus, the time_in_system is 2 hours while the lethal dose is 10. Try not to overdo that stuff. :)

3) Every bandage type comes with 3 (again, important, there are more) stats: How much of a wound it closes, how likely it is to fail and how long it takes 'til it fails. When you apply a dressing, the chance is rolled. If it turns out to be "good", that's it and that part of the wound is closed. If it is "bad", another roll decides in the time frame between t-min and t-max when it will fail.

Example:
Field dressings applied to medium sized abrasions have a reopening chance of 0.7 (70%), a minimum delay of 200 seconds and a maximum delay of 1000 seconds. You apply a field dressing to a medium abrasion. The 100 sided dice are rolled and come up with a 44. This is lower than 70. So it will open. Another randomizer is called for a number between 200 and 1000 and it comes up with 600. So this field dressing will fail 10 minutes from now.

This is independent of anything you do. You can rest in bed or do jumping jacks and the chance does not change, because it is determined at the moment the bandage is applied, nothing you do afterwards affects that (with the exception of using a sewing kit, of course).

4) Injuries come in different sizes, and bandages have different levels of effectiveness concerning closing them. The way you describe it is pretty much how it works, yes. As a rule of thumb, the more effective a bandage is, the higher the chance that it will eventually reopen and the sooner it will do so. So Elastics have an awesome closing power but a very, very poor staying power (they will almost certainly reopen in almost every case unless treated with a sewing kit afterwards), while QuikClot has a very poor closing power but will likely close the wound for good (and if it doesn't will probably fail after the mission is over).

5) No. Every bandage for itself. An example:

You use 2 Elastics and 1 QuikClot to treat a wound. The Elastics both give 3, the QuikClot 1 closing power. You treat a wound of 7. Both elastics fail, the QuikClot stays. Now you're looking at a wound of level 6 (7 originally minus the 1 the QuikClot took care of). This is also why you should use the best dressing first (which is "best" highly depends on your circumstances) since the last dressing will only take care of the "rest" of the wound.

[Dope Pope]

Fly lähetti viestin:

Since it's been almost a month and no relevant answers...

My information is probably a bit dated since I haven't been playing the game for almost 3 years now, but as one of the first to write an Arma Ace Medical Triage Manual... I guess I should at least pretend I know something about it. Given that the last change date of the relevant files in ACE date from 5 years ago, that should be possible.

Still, take it with a grain of salt and only 'til someone comes along who has a more up-to-date info for you.

Also note that there is of course the possibility that whoever you're playing with modified ACE so that certain things work differently. We used to have a very active modder who tweaked the living hell out of the ACE system, so you might first want to ask your modder whether something is different in your ACE than it is in the "gospel" ACE. Also note that ever since the mod was created, there were a lot of rumors and voodoo floating about the medical system, so please check whether some of the things you think "should" work really do. Because just because something does something in reality doesn't necessarily mean that it works the same in ACE.

Now for the questions:

1) To my knowledge, there is none. They behave identical. IIRC Atropine was removed at some point and there should only be Adenosine left anymore. At least that's what the source files suggest.

2) The answer to this should be no, but it depends on whether you're dealing with a modified ACE pack. Because adenosine also should not have that desired effect (of waking someone up), all adenosine does in ACE is to lower the blood pressure, at least according to the standard code. Note that all autoinjectors come with 4 values (they come with more, but 4 are relevant in this case): Effect (+/- blood pressure and/or pain suppression), delay 'til max effect, time in system and maximum dose. The maximum dose (i.e. the next one is fatal) for adenosine is 6, the time in system 15. In other words, you could only give 6 doses of adenosine in 15 minutes or the patient croaks. Which he almost certainly will anyway when you lower his blood pressure by the about 90 that will do to him. Are you absolutely, positively and 100% CERTAIN that adenosine has ANY positive effect on whether a patient wakes up? Because I do remember that particulare piece of ACE medical voodoo from the time when I started... and back then at the very least it was a load of bull.

In case you meant whether it's possible to keep people going with Epinephrine, since that pushes the blood pressure levels up... also nope. Whether people go to the black screen mostly depends on the amount of blood in their system (which affects blood pressure, but not only that does). So while you can "push" someone's blood pressure, what you get to see only matters concerning his survival, not his consciousness. Plus, the time_in_system is 2 hours while the lethal dose is 10. Try not to overdo that stuff. :)

3) Every bandage type comes with 3 (again, important, there are more) stats: How much of a wound it closes, how likely it is to fail and how long it takes 'til it fails. When you apply a dressing, the chance is rolled. If it turns out to be "good", that's it and that part of the wound is closed. If it is "bad", another roll decides in the time frame between t-min and t-max when it will fail.

Example:
Field dressings applied to medium sized abrasions have a reopening chance of 0.7 (70%), a minimum delay of 200 seconds and a maximum delay of 1000 seconds. You apply a field dressing to a medium abrasion. The 100 sided dice are rolled and come up with a 44. This is lower than 70. So it will open. Another randomizer is called for a number between 200 and 1000 and it comes up with 600. So this field dressing will fail 10 minutes from now.

This is independent of anything you do. You can rest in bed or do jumping jacks and the chance does not change, because it is determined at the moment the bandage is applied, nothing you do afterwards affects that (with the exception of using a sewing kit, of course).

4) Injuries come in different sizes, and bandages have different levels of effectiveness concerning closing them. The way you describe it is pretty much how it works, yes. As a rule of thumb, the more effective a bandage is, the higher the chance that it will eventually reopen and the sooner it will do so. So Elastics have an awesome closing power but a very, very poor staying power (they will almost certainly reopen in almost every case unless treated with a sewing kit afterwards), while QuikClot has a very poor closing power but will likely close the wound for good (and if it doesn't will probably fail after the mission is over).

5) No. Every bandage for itself. An example:

You use 2 Elastics and 1 QuikClot to treat a wound. The Elastics both give 3, the QuikClot 1 closing power. You treat a wound of 7. Both elastics fail, the QuikClot stays. Now you're looking at a wound of level 6 (7 originally minus the 1 the QuikClot took care of). This is also why you should use the best dressing first (which is "best" highly depends on your circumstances) since the last dressing will only take care of the "rest" of the wound.

Thanks for taking the time for answering my question. Although i have need further clarification on point number 2:

2. For this case, let's say that the soldier is conscious, yet has lost a lot of blood to the point his vision is now black and white. Since loss of blood would drive up heart rate (CMIIW), he would eventually suffer from a cardiac arrest.

There is no Combat Life Saver in the vicinity, and the soldier wishes to remain conscious so he can be combat effective.

So to prevent suffering from cardiac arrest, he would try to administer adenosine when his heart rate hikes up.

Also, the guide i've read until now has mentioned that adenosine lowers heart rate, and not blood pressure. So which one is true?

[Fly]

So to prevent suffering from cardiac arrest, he would try to administer adenosine when his heart rate hikes up.

Reading through the changenotes, there was apparently a change in 3.13 where adenosine now should allow you to avoid cardiac arrest in such scenarios (can be found in the 2019-12-31-ace3-version3130.md file included with the ACE source code). Whether and how this works is something someone else might have to answer, that change was after my active time.