North Vietnam never used Mil Mi 2 Helicopters?!

[Weißbrot]

I am a bit confused about the Mil Mi 2 helicopters for the North Vietnamese Army in SOG CDLC, they never used them in the period of Vietnam War, the only helis they used were Mil Mi 4 and Mil Mi 6 helicopters or iam missing here something?

Mil Mi 4 over Cambodia:

"I am no longer certain on which day the incident in question happened, but I do remember that it was during a lull in air activity. I was sitting on top of the squadron command M113 when I saw a helicopter heading toward us from the wrong direction. He was coming from the interior of Cambodia! As soon as he got close enough to identify, I could see that it was a Soviet designed MI-4, which NATO had called a Hound. The Hound was a very distinctive bird, with fixed, wheeled landing gear instead of skids, looking very much like a US H-19. I remember it as being black, with no markings showing.

I was right next to Major An, and told him what the craft was, and suggested in the strongest possible terms that we shoot the sucker down. (We had several weapons that would reach the target.) The exchange went something like this:

Me: “That is an NVA helicopter, and we need to engage it.”
An: “It might be US or VNAF. We need to get clearance.”
Me: “There is no question about what it is. I have seen them in Europe, and there is no friendly helicopter like that in country.”
An: “You call your people, and I’ll call mine. We must be certain that it is not friendly.”

At that moment, I only had control over a .45 pistol, so taking matters into my own hands was not an option. Meanwhile, the Hound, which was flying low and slow, landed behind a treeline. A few minutes later, it lifted off and landed again a couple of hundred meters away. After a short time on the ground, it lifted off again, and went back the way it came. Ironically, at a time when the sky was normally filled with our air assets, I had no contact with any friendly air that might have been able to pursue the Hound."

https://cherrieswriter.com/2016/10/19/the-mysterious-helicopter/

[Sams]

Check out their FAQ for the explanation:
https://community.sogpf.com/threads/148-S-O-G-Prairie-Fire-FAQ

[29/P4TCH3R]

"Why was the Mi-2 chosen as the PAVN instead of other known aircraft?
This was a deliberate decision by the team for balance purposes. The PAVN used a variety of helicopters over the war and not many of those actually seen unless across the border in Laos and North Vietnam. Many of those helicopters are not actively used in the Close Air Support role in comparison to the Huey helicopter or other American rotary aircraft featured during that period as the US Forces and their allies held a vast Air Superiority over South Vietnam. Post-war the Mi-2 received modifications in Poland that although historically were not featured in Vietnam allow PVP servers like KOTH to have a helicopter that is on part with the gunships featured on the BLUFOR side of the DLC. Helicopters like the Mi-24A were received by Vietnam but only as late as 1975 and were not used in the conflict against forces in the South."
From the FAQ posted above.

[krzychuzokecia]

Since there were armed versions of Mi-4 (even if not used by Vietnam), the true answer is "we had access to Mi-2 model we could use, so we went with it".

During Vietnam War the North had only Mi-4 and Mi-6, and even after the capture of Saigon, they never adopted Mi-2.

[-OrLoK- Слава Україн]

there are always compromises, it's not as if they are trying to re create history with 100pc accuracy.

its a game, slightly oot items are fine.

luckily, as the platform is so open, server hosts can remove those helis from their mission if its too immersion breaking.

I *do* understand op's point but it's been explained and I think can be accepted.

BF1 drove my accuracy brain bits wild until I learned to take the game for what it was and to just have fun with it!

[Weißbrot]

Originally posted by 29j2003/The_P4TCH3R:

"Why was the Mi-2 chosen as the PAVN instead of other known aircraft?
This was a deliberate decision by the team for balance purposes. The PAVN used a variety of helicopters over the war and not many of those actually seen unless across the border in Laos and North Vietnam. Many of those helicopters are not actively used in the Close Air Support role in comparison to the Huey helicopter or other American rotary aircraft featured during that period as the US Forces and their allies held a vast Air Superiority over South Vietnam. Post-war the Mi-2 received modifications in Poland that although historically were not featured in Vietnam allow PVP servers like KOTH to have a helicopter that is on part with the gunships featured on the BLUFOR side of the DLC. Helicopters like the Mi-24A were received by Vietnam but only as late as 1975 and were not used in the conflict against forces in the South."
From the FAQ posted above.

Originally posted by Sams:

Check out their FAQ for the explanation:
https://community.sogpf.com/threads/148-S-O-G-Prairie-Fire-FAQ

Thank you both.

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Since there were armed versions of Mi-4 (even if not used by Vietnam), the true answer is "we had access to Mi-2 model we could use, so we went with it".

During Vietnam War the North had only Mi-4 and Mi-6, and even after the capture of Saigon, they never adopted Mi-2.

Yes, it feels like they saved some money on the North Vietnamese Army, also i am missing binoculars for the North, in SOG one of the officers is using the M19 binocular (wich is also not correct?!), i think it would be faire to request a update for the North Vietnamese Army since its lacking alot and gamebalance is still not really existing and so for no excuse for this kind of solutions.

Originally posted by -OrLoK-:

there are always compromises, it's not as if they are trying to re create history with 100pc accuracy.

its a game, slightly oot items are fine.

luckily, as the platform is so open, server hosts can remove those helis from their mission if its too immersion breaking.

I *do* understand op's point but it's been explained and I think can be accepted.

BF1 drove my accuracy brain bits wild until I learned to take the game for what it was and to just have fun with it!

Sure there are some compromises, but why are all of the compromises affect the North Vietnamese Army (ofcourse not only but you get my point)?
It would be faire if they implemented some Mi 4 variants the North never used, but implementing the Mi 2 is like implementing the Mi 24 wich was in the time of Vietnam War still in heavy developement, it just makes no sence to have the Mi 2 in Vietnam War and breaks for me on a high level the immersion this CDLC could offer.

[krzychuzokecia]

Originally posted by -OrLoK-:

there are always compromises

That's true!

Originally posted by -OrLoK-:

it's not as if they are trying to re create history with 100pc accuracy.

Except, they say they do[www.sogpf.com] :P

Originally posted by Savage Game Design:

the most authentic Vietnam war game ever created

Extraordinary statements require extraordinary proofs. But apart from the devs cockiness, is the Mi-2 a big issue? Not really, there are bigger, game-breaking problems with the DLC. But all those aspects sadly retract from the overall quality - even if the rest is great.

At least, with Mi-2, you can channel your inner Brad Pitt! (That movie is the only place, except SOG:PF, where I seen PAVN depicted using Mi-2)

[опытный стрелок]

Opfor in the mod have no mig jets. They are unbelievably unbalanced against blufor.

[Weißbrot]

Originally posted by Меченый:

Opfor in the mod have no mig jets. They are unbelievably unbalanced against blufor.

It was the plan to balance Opfor with the SA-2 SAM but the radar has shadows wich limit its range of 16 km (wich is alot) and it cant be deployed from a player wich means its a oneway ticket and then ...
I think more jets/planes are a sure thing since ARVN and PAVN have their own jet pilots, but the Mi 2 is unacceptable.

[Booze_Rooster]

It mentions in the field manual that its included for balance reasons.

[heartc]

Originally posted by 29j2003/The_P4TCH3R:

"Why was the Mi-2 chosen as the PAVN instead of other known aircraft?
This was a deliberate decision by the team for balance purposes. The PAVN used a variety of helicopters over the war and not many of those actually seen unless across the border in Laos and North Vietnam. Many of those helicopters are not actively used in the Close Air Support role in comparison to the Huey helicopter or other American rotary aircraft featured during that period as the US Forces and their allies held a vast Air Superiority over South Vietnam. Post-war the Mi-2 received modifications in Poland that although historically were not featured in Vietnam allow PVP servers like KOTH to have a helicopter that is on part with the gunships featured on the BLUFOR side of the DLC. Helicopters like the Mi-24A were received by Vietnam but only as late as 1975 and were not used in the conflict against forces in the South."
From the FAQ posted above.

Translation:

"♥♥♥♥ Explanation: We did it for retarded multiplayer balancing issues because we care about retarded crybabies on multiplayer more than about historical accuracy. After all, every game has to be retarded like Battlefield and CoD these days, in order to cater to the retarded ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ so we on the other hand can get filthy rich like the parasites who did Battlefield and the CoD series."

[Weißbrot]

Originally posted by heartc:

Originally posted by 29j2003/The_P4TCH3R:

"Why was the Mi-2 chosen as the PAVN instead of other known aircraft?
This was a deliberate decision by the team for balance purposes. The PAVN used a variety of helicopters over the war and not many of those actually seen unless across the border in Laos and North Vietnam. Many of those helicopters are not actively used in the Close Air Support role in comparison to the Huey helicopter or other American rotary aircraft featured during that period as the US Forces and their allies held a vast Air Superiority over South Vietnam. Post-war the Mi-2 received modifications in Poland that although historically were not featured in Vietnam allow PVP servers like KOTH to have a helicopter that is on part with the gunships featured on the BLUFOR side of the DLC. Helicopters like the Mi-24A were received by Vietnam but only as late as 1975 and were not used in the conflict against forces in the South."
From the FAQ posted above.

Translation:

"♥♥♥♥ Explanation: We did it for retarded multiplayer balancing issues because we care about retarded crybabies on multiplayer more than about historical accuracy. After all, every game has to be retarded like Battlefield and CoD these days, in order to cater to the retarded ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ so we on the other hand can get filthy rich like the parasites who did Battlefield and the CoD series."

Bit unfair since not all MP player seem to want the Mi 2 too, but yes i have the same feeling that more and more younger COD, CSGO and MW folks populating the Arma Community.

[CMDR Sweeper]

Balance reasons have always been the decesive factor.
For an example if you view Dangerous Waters, a really dedicated and detailed sim chose the Oliver Hazard Perry as the surface vessel to make playable, because a better asset for missions would have been a Ticonderoga or Burke, but the opposition you could have in MP (P3 Orion and MH-60 helicopter) as a Burke or Ticonderoga would have been too dominant in multiplayer.
But the included frigate that was balanced was useless in most scenarios to play as it has very limited capabilities.

Back then Multiplayer was becoming important, today it is so important that I sort of expect stuff to go this way.
Personally though, I want all the assets and then I can plonk them down in the manner I want to use them.
Especially for those of us that plays coop matches, as the Ai doesn't file "abuse" reports when stuff is balanced against them :D

[krzychuzokecia]

Originally posted by CMDR Sweeper:

Balance reasons have always been the decesive factor.

As I said earlier, you could fulfill the same balance requirement with Mi-4. The issue is, that's not a popular design, so few 3D models of it exist - actually, apart from Wargame, I don't think there's any at all.

So going for Mi-2 is easier, faster and cheaper. Especially if (if I'm not mistaken) the model in SOG:PF is the one from GlobMob.

[29/P4TCH3R]

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Originally posted by CMDR Sweeper:

Balance reasons have always been the decesive factor.

As I said earlier, you could fulfill the same balance requirement with Mi-4. The issue is, that's not a popular design, so few 3D models of it exist - actually, apart from Wargame, I don't think there's any at all.

So going for Mi-2 is easier, faster and cheaper. Especially if (if I'm not mistaken) the model in SOG:PF is the one from GlobMob.

Nope, no models have been shared between any cDLC. Self made.

[heartc]

Originally posted by Weißbrot:

Originally posted by heartc:

Translation:

"♥♥♥♥ Explanation: We did it for retarded multiplayer balancing issues because we care about retarded crybabies on multiplayer more than about historical accuracy. After all, every game has to be retarded like Battlefield and CoD these days, in order to cater to the retarded ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ so we on the other hand can get filthy rich like the parasites who did Battlefield and the CoD series."

Bit unfair since not all MP player seem to want the Mi 2 too, but yes i have the same feeling that more and more younger COD, CSGO and MW folks populating the Arma Community.

That's actually the point, at the end of the day, or at the second layer, if you will, and it is the big irony, too:

I doubt that many Arma players at all would have complained that there was no real Airborne option for the North Vietnamese in a Vietnam scenario. I doubt anyone would have even noticed - because it is totally not a real thing. It was only a thing in the developer's head, it was never a real thing. But because they became enthralled by the BENJAMINS associated with BF and CoD, which are just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for already dumb people, they took that imaginary thing and thought it necessary to implement in Arma, even though no one would have ever asked for it, and instead, it is malignent to the Arma concept, which has always been about realism, rather than retardation.

And hey, if they absolutely wanted to implement an airborne / air-ground aspect to the NVA side, they should have gone with the AN-2, for style at least. Almost a helicopter in and of itself, but way cooler than the Mi-2, and way more real at the same time, too.

So, since you were talking about "unfair". I think it is unfair that the retardation of other games is brought over to the Arma community for reasons that don't even exist in the Arma community, but only in the developers heads because they are enthralled by the BENJAMINs they see over at BF / CoD degeneration. If they want to have the BF / CoD BENJAMINs, they should move over to the BF / CoD swamp and revel in that decadence and ultimate, ultimate destruction, rather than being agents of degeneration for Arma.