4 years to wait some fix.......

[Sparviero]

I think that nobody looking for the perfect game , but correct some absurd fantasies about the possibility of being hit with an assault rifle through a concrete wall and brickinside inside an home in the twentieth century........and pretty ridiculous.
This are Greek maps and not....Africa map.
Anyway.........now things go that way and nobody gives it any more importance.

[El Berl]

I conducted ballistic testing today with 5.56x45mm rounds out of a CTAR. The tested cartridges were:

1. Stock-game 5.56x45mm
2. ACE3 M995
3. Dagger M193
4. Dagger Mk262
5. Dagger M855
6. Dagger M995

My target was a house in Kavala, with the lower floor made of the brown rockish material. The house is in pristine condition before-and-after testing. Range tested was point-blank.

Basegame 5.56 performed horribly, unable to even penetrate the wooden door. It took two rounds to penetrate the window from point-blank. ACE3's M995, on the other hand, performed very well and penetrated both the outer wall and the inner wall below the staircase, with some rounds hitting the side room through the inner wall. Dagger M193 penetrated one wall and stopped midway through the house. Mk262 performed worse than M193. Dagger M855 penetrated through one wall all the way to the second wall but did not penetrate the second wall. Dagger M995 penetrated both walls but stopped immediately after exiting the second wall, with no progress made into the second room.

ACE3's M995 was the victor, outperforming the stock-game 5.56x45mm's penetration by an order of magnitude. Stock 5.56 cannot even penetrate a wooden door about four inches thick. How is this realistic? It's not, and as I said, Bohemia must have intentionally nerfed the 5.56x45mm round to appeal to the "extend combat duration" and "softcore" crowds.

Dagger's cartridges use actual ballistic data, they have full ACE3 support and are the most realistically-performing rounds, alongside ACE3's cartridges.

I will test 7.62x51mm rounds shortly. Rounds tested will be stock game 7.62x51mm, ACE3 M993, DGR M993, DGR M80, and KA M948 SLAP as a joke.

[El Berl]

7.62x51mm cartridge testing:

1. Stock-game 7.62x51mm (MK-1 EMR)
2. ACE3 M993 AP (MK-1 EMR)
3. Dagger M80 (MK-1 EMR)
4. Dagger M993 (MK-1 EMR)
5. KA M948 SLAP (Scar-H, 13-inch barrel)

Arma III's own 7.62x51mm round performed much better than the 5.56x45mm round at point-blank, penetrating one wall of the very same house (still in excellent condition) but stopping in the middle of the room due to velocity loss. It is about on-par with the 5.56x45mm M193 round, which is obsolete ball ammo from the Vietnam War.

ACE3's M993 performed flawlessly, going through all three walls of the house, and it kept going all the way down the street of Kavala. Dagger's M80 performed moderately better than Stock-game 7.62x51mm, penetrating up to the second wall. Dagger M993 matched ACE3's M993.

Kickass's M948 SLAP round outperformed both M993 cartridges, as it should in real life, and went through the first wall of yet another house after going through the three walls of the test house.

We have a triple-mod agreement that stock-game 7.62x51mm and stock-game 5.56x45mm are underpowered. I wll conduct .338 and then .50 testing shortly.

[El Berl]

8.6x70mm (.338 Lapua) cartridge testing, with a MAR-10:

1. Base-game .338
2. ACE3 API526
3. Dagger API526
4. Dagger Styx Hollow-Point
5. Dagger Sniper GB528
6. Dagger AP592

Arma III's own .338 round penetrated one wall all the way through and then stopped in the middle of the second room. Stock .338 is on-par with ACE3's M995, which is only 5.56x45mm. ACE3's API526 round penetrated through both walls and went through the whole house. Dagger API526 matched ACE3's API526. Dagger's hollow point ammo failed to penetrate even one wall, which makes sense. GB528 matched Styx. AP592 was slightly better than the ACE M993 round, penetrating three walls and moving onward.

Bohemia's numbers are even more off with .338. Base game .338 should not match ACE3's armor-piercing 5.56 round. I will shortly conduct testing with a Lynx, 12.7mm.

[El Berl]

Lynx cartridge testing, 12.7mm. Do note that real-life 12.7x108mm is much more powerful than 12.7x99mm.

1. Base-game ammo. (12.7x108mm)
2. Base-game APDS. (12.7x108mm)
3. Dagger M33 Ball (12.7x99mm)
4. Dagger M2 AP (12.7x99mm)
5. Dagger .50 Frangible (12.7x99mm)
6. Dagger M962 SLAP-T (Sabot-Light-Armor-Piercing, tracer), (12.7x99mm)
7. ACE3 API (12.7x99mm)

Base game ammunition penetrated all three walls but only lasted about a meter after passing through the third wall. Base-game APDS penetrated all three rounds and casually flew past, flying past many houses almost as if nothing happened. Dagger M33 went through two walls but failed to make it through the second room, this is fine since M33 is a round for use against "personnel and unarmored targets" (Wikipedia). The Frangible cartridge shattered upon impact with the first wall, as designed. The M2 cartridge slightly outperformed base-game APDS.

Dagger's M962 SLAP-T round massively outperformed M2 and base-game APDS, flying through three walls and passing over many other houses in a straight arc. ACE3's API round was slightly inferior to M962 SLAP-T.

The "Bohemia Syndrome" seems to be much weaker once you reach the fifty-caliber mark. In addition, the house only had three walls and thus I judged the most potent cartridges off of the flatness of their ballistic arc after going through the house. I will conduct later 12.7x99mm testing on a cargo tower in order to get better data on the 12.7x99mm cartridges.

My hypothesis turned out correct. Bohemia's ballistic data is false and results in lower-caliber rounds massively underperforming. Dagger and ACE3 are 1:1 due to the fact they use authentic data.

[El Berl]

12.7x99mm (.50 BMG) testing, cargo tower just north of Frini in the small military base. I stood at one end of the interior of the cargo tower, just under the staircase, and fired at the wall between me and the staircase that led to the lower, open, platform. All rounds were fired with a Lynx, except for the APDU ammo, which was fired from an AMR-2 courtesy of KA.

1. Base-game ammo. (12.7x108mm)
2. Base-game APDS. (12.7x108mm)
3. Dagger M33 Ball (12.7x99mm)
4. Dagger M2 AP (12.7x99mm)
5. Dagger .50 Frangible (12.7x99mm)
6. Dagger M962 SLAP-T (12.7x99mm)
7. ACE3 API (12.7x99mm)
8. KA 12.7x99mm APDU (Armor-Piercing-Depleted-Uranium), (12.7x99mm)

Arma III's own 12.7x99mm cartridge penetrated one wall but stopped right after. Arma III's own APDS cartridge penetrated one wall and hit the second wall, stopping immediately and not penetrating. M33 matched the base game 12.7x99mm. The M2 Cartridge slightly outperformed base-game APDS. Dagger's Frangible cartridge shattered upon first-wall impact. SLAP-T managed to just penetrate the outer wall but stopped right after. ACE3 API failed to match SLAP-T, not reaching the second wall.

KA's depleted uranium wonder-bullet penetrated both walls and flew on for several hundred meters after passing through both walls of the cargo tower. This testing revealed interesting data:

1. The "Bohemia Syndrome" is still in effect, and ACE3's round failed to surpass APDS, which has notoriously high penetration, however, it was outperformed by M2 AP. SLAP-T outperformed the APDS round. Now, it's worth noting that the base-game ammunition is 12.7x108mm and is thus somewhat more powerful than .50 BMG, however, in-game, this is not the case.

Hence, the "Bohemia Syndrome" is still present and so Arma III really needs a ballistic model redo. The stock game's cartridges are underperforming across the board against the real-life data used in ACE3 and Dagger's Weapons and Ballistics. I believe this is intentional behavior, caused by Bohemia wanting game balance over realism.

[Bobby Digital™]

ask anyone in law enforcement or the military how easy it is for basic military rifle rounds to go through walls of all kinds, brick/plaster etc.

[El Berl]

Bobby Digital™님이 먼저 게시:

ask anyone in law enforcement or the military how easy it is for basic military rifle rounds to go through walls of all kinds, brick/plaster etc.

Indeed. Check out my above posts for hard testing data that demonstrates how weak the vanilla game's cartridges are compared to the realism of ACE3 and Dagger's rounds. Vanilla 5.56 cannot even penetrate a wooden door of IKEA-quality, and struggles to go through windows at point-blank. M995, the infamous "black-tip" armor-piercing ammo, can penetrate two house walls in a row. M855 can go through a wall just fine.

The house I used for testing was one of Altis' finest, one of the pearl-white ones in Kavala. Even Dagger M855 (which is obsolete even now) can go through many lesser walls like they're nothing. 5.56x45mm rounds from 2035 should have zero difficulty going through a whole house.

All of the data I collected was from ACE3 and Dagger, and matches 100% with the Unreal Tournament mod "Infiltration", infamous for its realism.

[romgoloid]

waiting for mexico map

[El Berl]

whenamulefoals53님이 먼저 게시:

waiting for mexico map

Sounds pretty nice, make it like a Mexican Altis, and make sure to have Trump's wall up to the north, and a little bit after it as well for any defenders. The wall could make for some sick Zeus Operations.

[El Berl]

Bumping because this thread is too good to fall back several pages.

[Sams]

Did you try the stock rounds without mods? Because I can't replicate those results.
I don't know which mod has the CTAR in your test, but I tried the same with TRG-21 and couldn't stop the bullet with a wooden door. Also 7.62x51 MK-1 goes easily through one outer wall, sometimes two but barely. Lynx penetrates 3 walls + 20m of air.

Or maybe your house was not the same as mine: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/File:Land_i_Shop_01_V3_F.jpg

[8mob8]

arma3 has the best penetraion dynamics of any game imo

[El Berl]

I was using the four-room house with the same coloration. I believe the shop has walls of different thickness. The CTAR is from stock, it's a short-barrel TRG-21, game was run using ACE3, which shouldn't adjust stock ammunition. Are you sure the barrel wasn't clipping through the door and penetrating that way?

The MK-1 was the rifle I used for most of my 7.62x51 shots. I used the bullet tracing function to determine when it penetrated and when it did not. I fired six rounds per ammo type. I believe my house has thicker walls, hence the different testing results.

Testing house: http://thezombieinfection.com/wiki/images/f/fb/Arma3_CfgVehicles_Land_i_House_Big_01_V3_F.jpg

Either way, what's really important is how massive the difference between stock and modded ammunition is. Dagger uses real data, along with ACE3. The terminal ballistics of base-game rounds, especially low-caliber rounds like 5.56x45mm, are not in harmony with the real data of ACE3 and Dagger. Therefore, I can conclude that Bohemia made an error.

8mob8님이 먼저 게시:

arma3 has the best penetraion dynamics of any game imo

Infiltration, which is seventeen years old, has superior penetration mechanics by a mile. Bohemia has to balance the scale between "hardcore" and "casual" while Infiltration's community was unilaterally composed of hardcore milsim types.

Hey, I'm not hating on Arma at all, it just bugs me that we're playing a military sandbox that has gone through a balancing cycle. If guns really shoot through walls, so be it. We the players will come up with tactics to survive.

[Sams]

Ok, so it's the TRG-20 then.
I tested with that house and the doors simply can't stop the shots even if I shoot from 500m away. And a single shot from close range is still lethal to an unprotected chest behind it. So clearly your mods are changing the stock ammo too. Might be the ACE ballistics module.

MK-1 penerates any wall on that house too, not two though, so they are probably different material or thicker than ones on my first test. The bullets are very lethal after the first wall though as they retain over 75% of their muzzle velocity.

[El Berl]

I'm definitely not using ACE ballistics. Your MK-1 is matching mine when it comes to wall penetration, but I'm certain the door is stopping stock-game 5.56x45mm rounds, going off of the ballistic arc module.

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/BIS_fnc_traceBullets

The 7.62x51mm bullets stop midway after the first wall. Regardless, compare the Dagger ammunition and regular ammunition. Sure, the doors are being odd. ACE3 has no reason to change the stock ammunition (it has its own ammunition, and if so, my bullets should outperform yours and they don't) and Dagger certainly isn't doing it.

The dagger ammunition vastly out-penetrates normal Arma III ammunition. A lot of stuff is undocumented and we probably shot from different angles or shot at different parts of the door. This "CTAR" is a TRG-20 with a further cut-down barrel. That likely explains why you're outperforming me with stock bullets, because you have more barrel. Higher velocity equals more penetration. Meanwhile, your 7.62x51mm tests seem to match mine because we're using the same gun.

M80 Ball outperformed stock-game 7.62x51mm rounds by a hair, which still renders my conclusion correct that the lower-caliber guns are underpowered. We need AP ammo base-game. M995 (AP) penetrated two walls, the outer wall, and the wall with the staircase. M993 (7.62x51mm counterpart) blew through all three walls. Even the Lynx's APDS round is outperformed by standard M2 AP, and the M962 SLAP round beats it in flatness after exit. In addition, the Lynx's base-game ammo is supposed to be 12.7x108mm, which means it has substantially more power behind the bullet than M2, meaning the APDS round should heavily outperform it.

With regards to .338, base-game .338 is on-par with M995.

If you want to try out the Dagger ammunition, be my guest: (It needs ACE3 to run) http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=30170