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Unless they have a great axe. Good luck escaping that.
What is a "meaty" attack?
What does "hitting like a wet noodle" mean to you?
Can you explain and quantify the skills required to play in PVP/PVE the NW open beta combat state?
Can you explain and quantify the skills required to play in PVP/PVE NW preview combat state?
I saw in the second video the dude is bringing vanilla WoW but without the appropriate gameplay footage, here some real gameplay (and not some whacking against a bugged NPC ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miPrLLOyiE0
What do you think about that video?
What is the differences between WoW PvP and NW preview PvP outside of the most obvious thing (which is tabtarget against action game)?
Can you explain what skill is needed in this WoW video and make a comparison with the skills needed in NW preview combat state?
Does the hit in WoW vanilla feel "meaty" and what is the reasoning behind the answer?
Does the hit in WoW vanilla is hitting like "a wet noodle" and what is the reasoning behind the answer?
And last question, if i tell you that DarkSoul (let say the 3) make a terrible MMORPG how can you convince me of the opposite?
The combat used to be something unique to MMOs, something to set it apart from the crowd. Unfortunately Amazon chose to dumb it down, instead of teaching players the mechanics.
Such a shame as the combat could've been a major selling point, not this dumbed down iteration which people will hit the skill ceiling in a matter of days.
I totally agree with you and in no way would I ask for a system where a level 10 player with lots of experience can stomp a level 40 player on his first char. The more interesting argument would be a skilled level 28 player against an inexperinced level 33 player. I think personal skill should be a factor in determining the outcome of a fight, even when cmparing different levels. But in no way should it compensate for a level difference of 5 levels or more. As you said - it IS an rpg and the integrity of the one-dimensional progression in terms of levels 1-60 has to be warranted.
I share your observation. The problem I see in PvP is in the large scale battles. The missing punishment for getting hit makes it viable in a 50vs50 war to just stack on the flag. The setups I saw most often were all melees stacked on the flag in a big pile. Healers were just laying their heal zones under it tab-healing and ranges stood outside hoping to hit an enemy while casting one spell after the other into this mess. It was an inscrutable ball of madness that effectively prevented any kind of intentional play.
Thanks for the sentiment. This is mainly why I created this and any preceding posts - to draw attention to the problem and educate on the current and earlier combat mechanics.
As mentioned in my OP I am well aware that any answers to those questions are highly subjective. But for me personally, a "meaty" attack is a successful attack that clearly has an impact on the enemy's model and not just their HP bar. A blow from a war hammer needs to feel like getting hit by a truck. The opposite is happening currently where heavy weaponary resembles a "wet noodle".
All those questions about the personal skill involved and the comparison between e.g. WoW as one example of a "tab-targetting" mmo and New World as a "souls-like" mmo (action-combat) are explained in the video by Acolyterush. I don't think I can do a better job explaining it so maybe you should watch it again.
But I can give you my interpretation of it and maybe add one or two aspects that show that the things Acolyterush says are relevant.
I played WoW for well over 10 years and only really played my rogue and later a druid as main characters both in PvE and PvP (having said this nothing I say beyond this point is to discredit WoW). For me WoW always was a numbers game especially in PvE. The vast presence of addons that analyze your gameplay, calculate the optimum and show post-fight analytics makes it obvious. Take patchwork encounters for example - there was a clear and indisputable ideal how to max our dps as a rogue. Surely, this does not hold true entirely in PvP or when NPCs have more complex bahaviours. But even then the outcome of a fight is highly influenced by the gear of a player. Hit or miss is determined by numbers and rng, same goes for evade, dodge, resist and any other effect that might apply to the character.
In New World this is very different. When you as player don't hit the dodge or block button your character will get hit. It does not matter whether the player hitting you is level 1 or level 60. When you swing your weapon in New World and your enemy is out of range you will have wasted your ability and be locked in a recovery frame that your opponent might exploit. In WoW your ability just won't go off and you are free to hit the next ability instantaneously.
We can see all this in your video. Look how often you can spam your abilities just to make sure that you get off that cheap shot or backstab at exactly the right time. Is this skill or would it be better to have to wait for the right time to hit the button once? Look at all the defensive proccs like absorb and dodge that seemingly pop up out of nowhere. Is this skill or would it be better if the player needed to hit a button to effectively dodge?
Anyway, I don't think that comparing WoW and NW brings us any closer to a better version of NW's combat. The comparison is interesting for players new to NW's combat and to see how the games differ.
In the end there is a very easy test you can do: Ask a friend for a duel in WoW or in New World. Hide all your UI, floating damage numbers, hp bars, cooldowns - just everything and then start the fight. If you can't clearly see who is winning by just watching the models and animation you know you have a bad combat system in place. During New World's preview event and before December patches New World's combat was so fluent and responsive that you could almost entirely fight without UI. It almost felt natural and just needed a little tweaking to avoid occasions where players could lose control over their character or couldn't escape a fight.
The thing is Acolyterush took a terrible example of WoW to make his point, in fact WoW systems and mechanics take all it strength on PvP and not on PvE despite being a PvE game and you as an ex-player of WoW should be aware of that, thats why i took a video of WoW PvP between 2 player knowing what they are doing on the "best WoW iteration".
Here is what Acolyterush say about preview NW mechanics.
- Active block and dodge.
- Committing animations able to be read on their startup and either rooting you in place or moving you in a specific fashion.
- Hitbox/hitscan and travel time.
- Spacing.
- Timing.
- Stagger (base to create a combo or what it should be)
- When,where,how to use a move.
Here is what we can see from WoW PvP mechanics on Rogue/Warrior matchup.Spacing checked.
Melee range is 5 meter, warrior have 2 charge from 10 meter to 25 meter range,below 10 meter the warrior cant charge,hence the warrior have a deadzone of 5 meter between 5 and 10 meter which the rogue took advantage of.
Timing checked.
Timing on CD uptime, timing on ressource usage, timing on CC diminishing return/immunity.(Should also have timing on Crowd control chaining aka combo but the rogue didnt do it, combo in an action game being a following of numerous attacks without retaliation)
Stagger unchecked.
There is no stagger on WoW but there is a slew of Crowd Control allowing various combos.
HitBox/hitscan/travel time checked.
The warrior is shouting decreasing rogue movement speed, this skill is an aoe centered on the caster(warrior) affecting a max of X target within distance X, travel time is only on movement skill and not on range attack ,proving WoW have a rough system of hitbox/hitscan and travel time(or can be interpreted like that).
Active defenses unchecked.
There is no such thing in WoW. There is some abilities providing defenses until the next hit but it only work as passive until the next hit and is not an active defense.
Commiting animation able to be read on their start-up and animation rooting unchecked.
There is no such thing in WoW however if you are an expert on your field you should know from A to Z the battle execution from all your matchup.
When where and how is all about decision making about combat state, pacing, animation root, animation cancel, matchup,it may be more coupounded on an action game but its not unique to action game.
If the dude is spamming skills out of range it is more about a behaviour disorder from a melee user he got because the game allow this ,no one would do this if the game would make the skill go off cd or paying a ressource tax for it but that "fix" wont make WoW an action game.
Absorb/evade/dmg numbers from gear are all fluff and it is not a hard mechanic like melee out of range, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC8JZi9GEPI this is black desert online ,the only fluff you see is the conditionnal damage/CC resist from Super armor and gear/frontguard notification.On top of active defenses and movement from an action game yet the game have all the stats fluff from a tab target like game.
Sorry but this have nothing to do with how good and bad the combat system is. The culprit being the RPG part on the MMORPG acronym, on a RPG if you dont know the gear of both of the duelist and a bit of knowledge about the combat system beforehand you cant make any assumption about which one is the winner until the battle is over if you hide everything and NW is no exception unless the devs revamp it to be a MMO Action Game and they remove gear stats altogether.
its is true people need to worry about NW combat system but even with stagger the game will still have a poor player skill growth, there will still be major victims on various combo weapons like hammer/spear or hammer/musket or spear/musket (and its not because those weapons have different main stats).
Right now If your weapon combo dont have an escape you are a food for any other weapon combo having an escape skill unless you are a healer on any game mode with or without stagger.
The issue is deeper than you think and there is various path for devs to fix it, stagger is only a part of one of those paths.
You didnt anwer one of my question though, so i reformulate do you believe if Dark Soul 3 will make a good MMORPG and why?
ADD: I dont mean to argue for the sake of arguing but i'm just trying to objective here.
insulting people you are asking for support from isn't an intelligent choice. It gives people pause before they tell you that you wasted your time and theirs.
They should balance around staggers intended use rather than ditching it due to unintended outcomes. e.g. if they intended it to not be chainable, after being staggered they should put diminishing returns on any stagger not caused by the same enemy for X seconds and communicate the diminished effect to those enemies.
I'd rather combat had more mechanics behind it than left click spam.
So you are saying you are a troll?
Also, for the love of god, explain concepts within the game. I had to go to reddit to find out what grit was because it's not explained in the game or the wiki.
Q:"Do i believe Dark Soul 3 to have the basis to make a good MMORPG?"
Answer;
The basis being its combat system and its core principle.
1°)DarkSoul 3 core principles is the stamina base combat,equipment load and brutal combat(stagger is one part of the brutal combat).
There isnt much to talk about because its pretty straightforward and those principles have their places whatever the kind of the game if the game itself is loosely tied to a per character (*)"actionny" base game.
2°)DarkSoul 3 actual combat system is where the issue lies, the melee combat system is so poor and straightforward it is a solved game in which the first player making the first action is the one to loose.
if you invite a couple of real pro gamer to investigate the melee game and play the game at the highest level all you will see is 2 people doing tight full circle of joystick within the edge of the opponent melee reach, this is non competitive and extremely boring to play/watch.
But why the combat is so awfull for competitive people? its partly because of the slow and static combat where weapon move recovery is too slow with no way to cancel it, the evade in which there is no way to make it varyiable in length nor speed and partly because of the weapons move set within a weapon not allowing proper aggression move and being all loosely the same attack type, some attack highly telegraphed due to being tied to a lengthy movement state.(Attacks are, 1 light atk chain, 1 heavy atk, 1 dodge atk,1 sprinting atk, 1 weapon art, 1 cutscene back attack)
Though Dark Soul and all its very close clones are very bad for MMO games, there is atleast 1 "Soul like" game which is more or less safe to make into a massive multiplayer game and it is NIOH.
Nioh have the same core principles than Dark Soul 3 but Nioh combat system is way more refined and dynamic with a faster combat pace, there is 3 stance with different pros and cons (but also depends on weapons in which the stances may not be exactly described below):
There is 1 light chain attack, 1 heavy chain attack , 1 light chain attack finisher ,1 heavy chain attack finisher, 1 light charged attack, 1 heavy charged attack , 2 skill, 1 special skill on sheathing button,1 evade type per stances and you have 1 sprinting attack, 1 weapon swap attack(player can swap without atk also), ki pulse( which is a timed stamina regen mechanic you recover more or less stamina spent from your last attack chain depending on the ki-pulse timing). grapple skill(which is front and an out of stamina cutscene attack),back attack skill (same than grapple but behind without enemy stam req), finishing blows(cutscene against a KnockDown target)
There is 3 type of evade action depending on stances (on top of the equipment load):
The weapon moveset design within a single weapon is also good, it have fast attack/or attacks where you can cancel the recovery and/or chain very fast into a dodge, it have lengthy attacks dealing high damage and/or stamina, it have anti parry/guardbreak (some guard break atk go into an auto grapple if the target is getting out of stamina on the attack), it have parry and or guard attacks(a guard attack is an attack in 2 times the first part is a guard going very fast into an attack, parry only offer parry frames which is not an invincible frames but part of a block frames but without the block, parry and guard attack loose massive stamina against a guardbreak),it also have the typical Super armor attacks. The weapon moveset design being good doesnt mean there is a good weapon balance in Nioh for PvP( and i wont speculate on this).
Conclusion:
Nioh skillcap ,with his 3 stances and stamina mechanic, is way higher than DarkSoul 3.
To make a good MMORPG, the game should offer a high skillcap with a wide margin for skill expression( the game being PvE focused or PvP focused have no bearing on the skillcap of the game), making DarkSoul series very bad for MMORPG genre and if the devs want to add the principles of DarkSoul into an MMORPG then they shoudnt take reference on something less than a Nioh game.
Stagger being one of the staple alongside stamina management on both attacks and defenses on DarkSoul like games but doesnt mean stagger is the messiah nor the CrowdControl from tabtarget is the devil.
And the devs can totally abandon stagger and replace them with status effect with a soft CD at the end of an attack chain (soft CD being you can still cast the skill/attack but without the status effect with or without diminished damage).
In a MMORPG Open World PvP game there is also a fine balance to have between damage/CC/movement and right now on NW there is unbalanced on the movement side between these factors thats why weapon combos that can break the combat are super strong and the others are just fodders.
*"actionny" as not what we "player" define as an Action system but having some similarity based on an active time battle which tab-target game like WoW have the same way than a game like NW, the opposite of an active time battle would be a turn based combat where time freeze between each action).
TLDR:The basis of DarkSoul series suck have low skillcap and is awful if it is replicated into a MMORPG.
The basis of Nioh is a high enough skill cap and good if it is replicated into a MMORPG.
Stagger can be replaced with CC from old tab target game CC( stun, mesmerize, root, slow)
Stagger can be replaced with CC from next gen MMORPG game CC( knockdown, knockback, stiffness(though stiffness= stagger), float or float lock (float lock is aerial cage from Aion or float from Black Desert Online).
They probably like the game more then you do, thats why they take their time in order to do it.
Also NW is all new lore. There's no reason weapons couldnt be perfectly balanced.
Forgive me but theres just a lot to read there but are you arguing for more predictability so you can master the combat? Would that not make enemies in the game start to look mechanical and thus unimmersive?
I don't expect i'll sink a whole lot of time on NW. I find it fun enough, though. And I'm not one to spend my free time learning tricks and tips to gain advantage in a videogame. So in your skills based system I expect that I'll be more often than not curbed stomped by players at my level. So I'll feel I have to pick fights with lower level players to avoid embarrasing myself or constantly be running from fights. Not a good feel. I'm thinking mmorpg and real skill just not a good mix for a game.
Also lets say you're a master swordsman from day 1. IRL you wouldnt remain a master swordsman unless you're spending all your time practicing everyday. So no going out and gathering materials or wealth. But there are just too many ways to achieve this effortlessly if you know how to exploit the systems in the game (I'm assuming this because its like that in every game. i dont actually know of any exploits). So you're a master swordsman , capitalist and craftsman and thats why you were hired for the expedition? Aww C'mon!
We'll I guess you can roleplay any way you want, just saying i think it would lead to unfun gameplay for most and the game would die so why argue for it.
It takes 5 minutes to read, then you can have an informed opinion on what he is saying, are your reading skills really that inept?