Top-down 2D view vs. the new 3D isometric view

[captaincofresi]

In Monaco the top-down view, made sure that you could see everything in one go (360 degrees view of all possible enemies). As you then have a complete overview of the whole building.

With the new 3D isometric view, I am worried that you will have quite a lot of blindspots due to walls blocking your view and that most of the time you will be more busy with camera control rather than playing the game. I just hope it would be possible to use a top-down camera view with the new Monaco 2 game that is, just hope they include this (as you then have no blindspots).

[pocico]

The demo is coming out tomorrow!

[captaincofresi]

Thanks for reminding me, I played a couple of missions of the Monaco 2 demo.
(editted due to new insights)

- First impressions are that the coin cost icons are way too small, it took a while to figure out the functional usage of coins. And different costs for tools.
- The 3D view will take some time to get used to, on the whole the game is a lot more cluttered now than it was with the 2D view. So probably need some time to find my favorite camera settings. As in the beginning I was moving the camera a lot, will try it without changing the camera at all and see how that goes.
- All in all, it seems for gameplay and tool usage it is good to see a similar system from Monaco has been transfered to this game. Again, slightly different so will take some time to get to grips with.

Looking forward to play some more, and see how it goes from there.

[vipmilka]

(-

[vipmilka]

(=

[captaincofresi]

Now that I played the demo again, and trying not to move the camera unless absolutely needed. The transfer from Top-down (2D) to 3D is quite okay. Although I think the game can benefit from improved camera controls like this (as I posted on Discord):

Camera control:
1/4. Request to have a 'lock camera in place' toggle. As then aiming a weapon can be independent of the camera, and the game becomes a bit less hectic without a constant moving camera when aiming.
2/4. Request to have a 'Reset to default' camera angle button.
3/4. Request to have the D-pad as use in Camera control, as then you could split zooming in/out (up/down D-pad) and turning camera left/right (left/right D-pad). As now I often zoom in and turn by accident, also without having the option to reset the camera angle to default at this moment (see B.).
4/4. An option to turn off Mouse to turn camera when using a controller, so if you hit it by accident you do not lose your camera angle that you chose.

[Hellfirebam]

Originally posted by captaincofresi:

Thanks for reminding me, I played a couple of missions of the Monaco 2 demo.
(editted due to new insights)

- First impressions are that the coin cost icons are way too small, it took a while to figure out the functional usage of coins. And different costs for tools.
- The 3D view will take some time to get used to, on the whole the game is a lot more cluttered now than it was with the 2D view. So probably need some time to find my favorite camera settings. As in the beginning I was moving the camera a lot, will try it without changing the camera at all and see how that goes.
- All in all, it seems for gameplay and tool usage it is good to see a similar system from Monaco has been transfered to this game. Again, slightly different so will take some time to get to grips with.

Looking forward to play some more, and see how it goes from there.

If you're trying to chase for higher scores is there any reason to conserve coins and try to use as few (smoke bombs for instance) as possible? Or if you can afford it, should you just always get them?

[NoRepro [dev] KoolAidManOhYeah]

Originally posted by Hellfirebam:

Originally posted by captaincofresi:

Thanks for reminding me, I played a couple of missions of the Monaco 2 demo.
(editted due to new insights)

- First impressions are that the coin cost icons are way too small, it took a while to figure out the functional usage of coins. And different costs for tools.
- The 3D view will take some time to get used to, on the whole the game is a lot more cluttered now than it was with the 2D view. So probably need some time to find my favorite camera settings. As in the beginning I was moving the camera a lot, will try it without changing the camera at all and see how that goes.
- All in all, it seems for gameplay and tool usage it is good to see a similar system from Monaco has been transfered to this game. Again, slightly different so will take some time to get to grips with.

Looking forward to play some more, and see how it goes from there.

If you're trying to chase for higher scores is there any reason to conserve coins and try to use as few (smoke bombs for instance) as possible? Or if you can afford it, should you just always get them?

Spent coins dont count against score. Go ahead and spend!

[Songbird]

I think the game might benefit from showing an outline of important objects that are within the player's proximity/line of sight, but are obscured by the camera. For example, there is a coin in the first mission in the vegetation next to the building entrance; you can know it's there from the planning view, but it still might be nice to let the player see it if they happen to walk up to the building with the camera rotated such that the tree or another object obscures it, even though their character would see it from the street.

[NoRepro [dev] KoolAidManOhYeah]

Originally posted by Songbird:

I think the game might benefit from showing an outline of important objects that are within the player's proximity/line of sight, but are obscured by the camera. For example, there is a coin in the first mission in the vegetation next to the building entrance; you can know it's there from the planning view, but it still might be nice to let the player see it if they happen to walk up to the building with the camera rotated such that the tree or another object obscures it, even though their character would see it from the street.

oof ya that one is rough. there's also one kinda in the forklift that gets kinda hidden

[Lapinothodep]

Unless an intended design: Petition for an option to enable small icons/hovering usenames/highlight allies on the same floor please. It is hard noticing allies at times due to lighting or disguise. (Apart from map)

[captaincofresi]

In the end I went back to the first Monaco game, for me that just feels more intuitive and fun. As you don't have the stop-and-go mechanic, that Monaco 2 has due to the design choice to go with a 3D enviroment with a 3D view (what makes sense to show off the 3D design, but it does come at the cost of the flow of the game) instead of a top-down view.

Still wish the best for the developers, so good luck with the game.

[Gradius]

2 is way more readable at a glance, but you're correct the walls do pose some issue. But the game uses a fog-of-war/line of sight system, so you're not exactly able to see behind walls fully anyway. Watching other people play Monaco 1 I always had trouble deciphering what was happening (though it's easier if you're the player and are focused on your own character). 2 doesn't look like it would have that issue. My human brain is designed to understand 3D spaces. Also different elevation levels make more sense when you can see stairs going up or down, or see down to the lower levels.
Plus just looking more 'expensive' is sure to be more attractive to newcomers.

See also: Switching from purely ragtime piano to more of a full orchestra. More variety there isn't a bad thing, even if the original style was still nice.

[NoRepro [dev] KoolAidManOhYeah]

Originally posted by Gradius:

2 is way more readable at a glance, but you're correct the walls do pose some issue. But the game uses a fog-of-war/line of sight system, so you're not exactly able to see behind walls fully anyway. Watching other people play Monaco 1 I always had trouble deciphering what was happening (though it's easier if you're the player and are focused on your own character). 2 doesn't look like it would have that issue. My human brain is designed to understand 3D spaces. Also different elevation levels make more sense when you can see stairs going up or down, or see down to the lower levels.
Plus just looking more 'expensive' is sure to be more attractive to newcomers.

See also: Switching from purely ragtime piano to more of a full orchestra. More variety there isn't a bad thing, even if the original style was still nice.

Same page, brutha :)

[captaincofresi]

Originally posted by Gradius:

2 is way more readable at a glance, but you're correct the walls do pose some issue. But the game uses a fog-of-war/line of sight system, so you're not exactly able to see behind walls fully anyway.

Thanks for making my point for me ;-) . So in Monaco, if you see/don't see something it is due to the fog-of-war in the 2D top-view.

Here in the Monaco 2 demo, if you see/don't see something it is either a bad 3D camera angle OR the fog-of-war system. Hence, the fog-of-war system is compromised due to the 3D camera angles, that block your view. So it is a lot more cumbersome, as the player needs to be the best camera person there is in order to make the fog-of-war system work now. And that means a lot of unneeded stop-and-go action to get correct camera angles, instead of playing the game.

So still, if you are into that it's allright with me. It is just compared to Monaco far less intuitive and has a worst flow to the game due to the addition of a lot of stop-and-go action for the player being a camera person as well as a thief in Monaco 2.