A difficulty fix suggestion.

[Pete Sneakly]

With the addition of sluices, I find it nearly effortless, even early game, to simple dam up a water input one block away from the map edge, until I get to an empty map edge. Directing the flow here makes all the water leave the map immediately. If you then place a sluice gate on that block that opens when it detects bad water, bam, total Badwater tide immunity.

I feel like this is way too easy.

Could we get a world settings option, so that water cannot exit anywhere except the original 'outlet' sections? So water will simple build up against map edges, except at those specific places? This way we still have to actually divert or build aqueducts to handle bad water tides.


Another idea; rare Badwater rain storms that dump a small amount of Badwater onto the top of every block for an hour or two.

Personally I'd love to hear any other ideas players have for making the game harder late game.

[Alcator]

Your 'badwater rain' idea would mean that ALL beavers get contaminated way before either faction can heal them. For Folktails, that would be a death sentence (contaminated beavers don't reproduce).

[Alcator]

As for your 'only allowed to leave at original 'outlet' sections -- there is no such thing in the Map Editor; the water simply exits wherever it touches the outer edge. There are even maps which have slowly filling reservoirs that overflow at a certain point and cause havoc to the player, and then this is 'fixed' by an upcoming drought. How would the game determine where to allow and where to disallow water leaving the map?

[EleventhStar]

you don't need sluices to do that, just a floodgate will achieve that effect on any map where the water source is near the edge. sluices just remove the frustration of getting a game over from forgetting to open/close a floodgate.

if you don't want that, find a map where the water sources aren't near the edge of the map. or play on maps where they are too far away to reach in the early game.

you can achieve your outlet idea by making a map with negative power water sources.

assuming you play on hard, making aqueducts/etc mandatory by season 4 seems just straight up not possible materials/science wise. you must be able to solve the first badtide with just logs, planks and possibly gears.

[Pete Sneakly]

Messaggio originale di Alcator:

Your 'badwater rain' idea would mean that ALL beavers get contaminated way before either faction can heal them. For Folktails, that would be a death sentence (contaminated beavers don't reproduce).

Assuming one made it awfully.. I did say late game. I wouldn't expect such a thing to happen before.. say... Day 30?
Configurable, whatever, easy.

[Pete Sneakly]

Messaggio originale di Alcator:

As for your 'only allowed to leave at original 'outlet' sections -- there is no such thing in the Map Editor; the water simply exits wherever it touches the outer edge. There are even maps which have slowly filling reservoirs that overflow at a certain point and cause havoc to the player, and then this is 'fixed' by an upcoming drought. How would the game determine where to allow and where to disallow water leaving the map?

By simply changing the rules of the game so that no map edges allow water to leave except predetermined ones.

[Pete Sneakly]

Messaggio originale di EleventhStar:

you don't need sluices to do that, just a floodgate will achieve that effect on any map where the water source is near the edge. sluices just remove the frustration of getting a game over from forgetting to open/close a floodgate.

if you don't want that, find a map where the water sources aren't near the edge of the map. or play on maps where they are too far away to reach in the early game.

Floodgates work sure, but being able to fully automated away badtides entirely, with a single tile, just seems silly.

My idea would be optional, so what the problem? I want to be able to make any map difficult.

[EleventhStar]

Messaggio originale di Pete Sneakly:

Floodgates work sure, but being able to fully automated away badtides entirely, with a single tile, just seems silly.

My idea would be optional, so what the problem? I want to be able to make any map difficult.

it is optional. just don't build sluices if you don't like them. (or only use them in manual mode.)

but there comes a point in the game where opening/closing floodgates becomes a chore, rather than a gameplay decision. that's why people asked for way to automate it for over a year.

[EleventhStar]

Messaggio originale di Pete Sneakly:

My idea would be optional, so what the problem? I want to be able to make any map difficult.

difficulty comes much more from being space restricted in the early game. from what you have been saying it sounds like you play on maps where you can plant more trees than you need.

like day 30 for badwater rain, that's before the first badtide even on hard.

[Pete Sneakly]

Yes that's one aspect of difficulty. Pretty directly set by the map and solvable by pacing and general strategy.

But I want the real gem of the game, the water, to have it's dangers actually matter. On the main branch they still do. On the experimental branch, not so much.

[EleventhStar]

Messaggio originale di Pete Sneakly:

Yes that's one aspect of difficulty. Pretty directly set by the map and solvable by pacing and general strategy.

But I want the real gem of the game, the water, to have it's dangers actually matter. On the main branch they still do. On the experimental branch, not so much.

just edit any map. add a wall along all sides of the map except where you want the water to leave.

if you use the negative water sources like i mentioned earlier, you can also have the exit point be in the middle of the map.

[eaerion]

Do you need game settings to prevent you from cheesing? Cannot you just... decide not to cheese?

[Pete Sneakly]

These are all pretty fair points. But they are sort of missing my point.

As far as I see it, one major aspects of the game has regressed unintentionally. For my personal desires you are both right, it doesn't really matter. But a regression is a regression.

[EleventhStar]

Messaggio originale di Pete Sneakly:

These are all pretty fair points. But they are sort of missing my point.

As far as I see it, one major aspects of the game has regressed unintentionally. For my personal desires you are both right, it doesn't really matter. But a regression is a regression.

your point makes no sense.

sluices are not a regression as they are fundamentally the same as floodgates which have existed forever. if you don't like them being automatic, you can just not use them in automatic mode or not use them at all. or mod them to be more expensive if you want them to be available later in the game.

plenty of people want the game to be more difficult and/or to have a late game only mechanic to replace draughts/badtides once those are solved.

in the meantime, map design is where the challenge comes from.

(and i also just dont believe you are building sluices before season 4 on hard difficulty.)

[Alcator]

Messaggio originale di Pete Sneakly:

My idea would be optional, so what the problem? I want to be able to make any map difficult.

There's a map editor in the game. Create a map that fits your needs. Share it with the community, perhaps others will love it as well.

As for what 'my idea would be optional, so what's the problem' question:

For starters, you are asking the developers to implement a "mode" that prevents water leaking out of the map except for predefined spots. Which means they'd have to:
1. Add the new '[allowed exit spot]' thing into the map editor and into the game,
2. Program a 'I know this water reached the edge, but don't let it disappear!' logic, further complicating things -- AND only apply it if your special mode is active, which means instead of a single "if" condition (has the water reached the edge?), they'd have to chain two conditions together, doubling the computational complexity.

And for what? Because you are too lazy to edit a map you want to play and add a single tile wide edge of terrain around the entire map?

Please, be realistic.

[lxbachio]

If you are playing a map where making a dam is trivial early game then it is the map's fault for being easy. If you consider any cycles other than the first 3 early game then you haven't tried min-maxing. Even before the sluice, there are a lot of cheeky solutions to bad water. However, if you have played maps with high water flow (more than 12 in one place), it'll be problematic. Not that building bigger won't solve but the scale will put you back a few cycles. The game is only as difficult as you make it out to be.

That was my opinion. But if you want idea, let's see... what about withdrawal symptom for starter? Once the colony reach a certain size (just an example for the trigger, it should be optional), not meeting certain needs will cause a big malus. Normally, only basic needs give maluses when unfulfilled. That way you need to turn to more bots or manage your well-being perfectly. Then the next step is different districts comparing their well-being and demanding equality, or outright demanding a new well-being building if it had not been built anywhere on the map (like the shower).
Finally, ratio of wet season to dry/bad season decreases until it is no longer sustainable. Building the wonder will reset ratio back to normal, giving you so many more cycles but you don't want to build it too early. In this optional game mode, build progress of wonder will decay so you cannot stall it. At the start of each cycle, number of beavers will be recorded and added to your highscore.