144hz w/ Vive Lighthouse 1.0 [CONFIRMED]

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

------------------------CONFIRMED----------------------------------
I and others have select 144hz with Vive lighthouse 1.0 base stations tracking the Index, and people have confirmed they are seeing 144hz in their non-SteamVR 3rd party apps like fpsVR too.


------------------------ORIGINAL MESSAGE----------------------------------
The Index marketing says lighthouse 1.0 is "compatible", but it doesn't say if there are any performance factors. But maybe it is? Yes in SteamVR, it allows picking 144hz even when you have lighthouse 1.0 hardware. But do you accurately see at 144hz? Follow my logic here...

I know the 2.0 base stations operate at 100hz each, 200hz a pair. So in theory the headset can be accurately tracked at 200hz by the beams.

I think the 1.0 base stations are 60hz, 120hs a pair, IF you use the sync cable. (only 90hz, via 60 hz + 30hz when optical sync, according to some sources)

So I suspect the software interpolates/predicts head (& hand) position for the multiple GPU images that land between lighthouse sweep signals. (such as if running at 90hz lighthouse optical sync, and 144hz headset) This would add to motion sickness, and take away from the realism feel of things.

So the question is:

1. If I want to play and see the head movement benefits of 120hz on lighthouse 1.0, do I have to use the sync cable? [SOLVED] ► It would seem it enables the 144Hz option in SteamVR.
   
2. To get to 144hz, do I have to have lighthouse 2.0? [SOLVED] ► It would seem not.

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[Veronica Vega Revlis]

i dont see how changing the refresh rate of the displays affects tracking you just will see more frames if your pc can push 144 frames a sec

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

Originally posted by Veronica Vega Revlis:

i dont see how changing the refresh rate of the displays affects tracking...

In VR, seeing an image from the accurate perspective/location your head is in, is critical.

If I move my head, and the image displayed by the GPU doesn't know I moved my head, it sends an image to the screen that's not correctly as viewed from your head location.

That's a bad thing. You might not consciously notice it, but it's what makes people get sick, and what makes VR seem less "real". It's the same reason loss of tracking initiates a gray screen vs allowing the game to continue.

This is what happens when the tracking is slow (90hz) and the GPU and headset image is faster 144hz. (exactly 60% faster screen refresh rate vs head tracking)

[BOLL]

The laser fans are just correcting the tracking as an IMU alone drifts with time, the IMUs are responsible for the rapid updating though, which IIRC is around 1000 Hz, so it should be fine.

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

Originally posted by BOLL:

...IMUs are responsible for the rapid updating though, which IIRC is around 1000 Hz, so it should be fine.

Are you saying the in headset and in controller built in accelerometers track at 1000 hz? If so, then I'd agree with you that the lighthouses are less of a concern. Can you provide a link to that source of info?

BUT this still leaves my two numbered questions primarily unanswered. (though less of a concern now)

[BOLL]

Researcher and developer Oliver Kreylos did a deep analysis of Lighthouse v1 when it became available. See this article[doc-ok.org]. Here's a quote related to this specific topic.

Originally posted by Lighthouse tracking examined by Oliver Kreylos:

... a new pose is calculated for the headset at a rate of 1,006Hz (again, weird but measured), and for each controller at a rate of 366Hz (also measured).

You can search for that on the page for the entire context.

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

Thanks. Knowing the accelerometer works at 250 to 1000 hz, is encouraging. I also finally heard from steam support. They said "Base stations doesn't effect your refresh rate - it's depend on you GPU, so make sure you have latest drivers installed." So it sounds like the rumor of needing base stations 2.0 for 144HZ headset are false.

Has ANYONE tried this with Lighthouse 1.0 and been able to confirm 144hz in the index?

[DZ Williams]

The 2.0 base station are basically an option for a larger play area. All Hz modes work fine with the 1.0 providing you have a capable GPU. For example, I'm using a gtx 1080 so 120hz is fine for games like beat saber but others like project cars I change it to 90Hz.

To be honest, aslong as the fresh rate is consistent, it shouldn't cause motion sickness.

[[S+S]King of Something]

I can confirm the lighthouse 1.0 works just fine for 144hz. i just updated my setup and didnt bother using the new lighthouses that were included with the Index.

Like DZ William's said, It really is more dependant on your system having the horsepower to push 120-144hz.

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by Fish Tail:

Thanks. Knowing the accelerometer works at 250 to 1000 hz, is encouraging. I also finally heard from steam support. They said "Base stations doesn't effect your refresh rate - it's depend on you GPU, so make sure you have latest drivers installed." So it sounds like the rumor of needing base stations 2.0 for 144HZ headset are false.

Has ANYONE tried this with Lighthouse 1.0 and been able to confirm 144hz in the index?

It's entirely false, I use 144hz with 1.0 base stations. :)

Tracking speed and refresh rate are totally different things, I understand the point you're trying to make about it, but it's just a none-issue. Consider that, as far as I know, the 1.0 base stations are 30hz per base station, the Vive/Vive Pro are running at 90Hz.
So it's no different to this. :p

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

I do to, and have explained this in the "UPDATE" above.

Have you confirmed you are SEEING 144hz, and how? (not just confirmed you can select 144hz in SteamVR)

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by Fish Tail:

I do to, and have explained this in the "UPDATE" above.

Have you confirmed you are SEEING 144hz, and how? (not just confirmed you can select 144hz in SteamVR)

I mean, I'm not sure we can really confirm that. If the compositor says it's pushing 144Hz, and games are running up to 144 FPS, you can only assume it's doing it.

There's no logical reason for it not to really! As someone else mentioned, it basically just interpolates between tracking poses at '1006hz' anyway!

I generally don't use 144Hz though as my PC isn't up to spec for it with only a GTX 1080, but it does feel smoother than 120Hz. :)

[[S+S]King of Something]

im running a 1080ti, and can say the basestations literally have nothing to do with the frame-rate you can pull. theres a video i can link you to that demonstrates how the base stations work. Tracking has very VERY little to do with the framerate you can pull. the base stations offer a "Locked in reference", your physical detected position, a hundred times a second or so, the rest is interpolated motion from the IMU in your controllers and headset. think of it as, for every 1 "optically synced" position reading, it gets 3 from the gyro's and accelerometers. so its, "Optical, imu, imu, imu, Optical, Imu, imu, imu, Optical." Is how the system scans. Each optical position reading is a you and your controllers Locked in "reference" position, for the next 3 "position detections" it uses the gyros and accelerometers to ESTIMATE where you are, it then re-syncronizes with your TRUE position with each OPTICAL sweep.

[[S+S]King of Something]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J54dotTt7k0 this video demonstrates the Optical positioning pulse. A vive or Index is given its real position in the room, with each of these pulses. Between pulses, it uses acceleromters and gyros to say, this. "last scan, i was here.. but i felt the hand controllers move this way, this fast, so i can estimate my position has changed to here." then, after a few "guesses" using the IMU as data, it Reaquires its REAL exact position when the next pulse arrives.

Even if you slowed the lighthouses WAAY down, you would still be able to pull the framerates you can with your graphics hardware, you'd just notice that the POSITION of the headset and controllers would be "driftyer" as the IMU's would still be estimating the position with simply fewer updates opticaly.

[FishTail [JoinUsInVR]💬GROUP]

What you wrote was covered earlier in the thread.

HOWEVER THE QUESTION still remains unanswered.... Have you confirmed you are SEEING 144hz, and how? (not just confirmed you can select 144hz in SteamVR)

As for your 2 posts, in a nutshell, some (FALSE) rumors where that the base stations limited the "tracked location" info to 60hz or 90hz with base stations 1.0 hardware. And if the GPU didn't know where your head was 144 times a second, then it can't give you accurate images at 144hz. (they could then be off, and induce motion sickness)

As discussed earlier in their thread, I got confirmation that the gyroscope/accelerometers in the devices provide the GPU with tracking updates more than 1000 times a second. Just as you also explained. And the base stations are only used to keep the 1000hz signal gyros/accelerometers from drifting too far off over time.

As for that video, it is more of a visualization of the base stations, than an "explanation of tracking" which needs to include the gyros. It's that type of "half the story" misconception that supports the false rumors I mentioned.

...with all that said, if you can answer the "QUESTION" as written above, please do! Nobody has been able to yet.

[[S+S]King of Something]

frame rate says im hitting my 144 fps cap, so does riva tuner statistics. So, System is reporting it is spewing 144 fps. With the geforce monitoring software saying its barfing 144fps, and the steam console showing im under 6.3 ms frametime, im sure im getting 144 fps. If you are trying to ask if i can COUNT 144 frames observed, No, as i cant count 144 individual frames per second, it is smoother than 120fps, so i can only assume, by all metrics, I am recieving 144 fps.