Valve Index Headset

Valve Index Headset

Human Eye works at 60fps
Can someone answer me this: Why are VR kits pushing 90fps and even 140fps when the human eye can only detect 60fps? It seems like a waste of tech to me.
Last edited by DAN-di-WARhol; Jan 5, 2020 @ 2:25pm
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Showing 1-15 of 49 comments
BOLL Jan 5, 2020 @ 2:38pm 
Who told you the human eye operates at 60 Hz?
Dhampir Jan 5, 2020 @ 2:41pm 
Members of the master race can detect 200+ fps. Only inferior races can see in a mere 60 fps.
Colonel Ragman Jan 5, 2020 @ 3:56pm 
This is some commonly perpetuated misinformation. The human eye doesn't work in "frames" at all. And it can certainly see the difference between 60, 90, 120fps etc. or at least most people can. Read up on it!
レフト Jan 5, 2020 @ 4:41pm 
Saying that a waste of tech is like saying having 128GB of RAM for minecraft is a waste of tech.

Don't be foolish.
rudygt Jan 5, 2020 @ 8:23pm 
the best solution is to see for yourself, there was a great video i cant find, but feel free to hit up youtube.
a higher refresh rate also prevents screen tearing, screen tearing is when your monitor is slower than your card is drawing, so if you have a nice video card and have vsync off and a 30-60 hz monitor you will get screen tearing all the time when you turn.
and also its noticable on mouse movements too, once you move to a 144hz monitor its night and day, i have my old 144hz monitor running at 60 on the hdmi and its abysmal..
run some test here if you want too its a great site
so just check it out on youtube and you'll learn, this isnt a moon conspiracy and they are just buzzwords, they are higher refresh rates for a reason.
https://www.testufo.com/stutter
Last edited by rudygt; Jan 5, 2020 @ 8:24pm
DAN-di-WARhol Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:10am 
Originally posted by BOLL:
Who told you the human eye operates at 60 Hz?

Look it up. You can google the question. It is a medical certainty. Birds see at a much higher frame rate, so perhaps the index is designed to future-proof technology for parrots.

As for myself, I can't accurately predict frame rates over 30fps. I can't tell the difference between 30fps, 60fps, or 90fps.

Anybody who can tell you that there is a noticeable diference between 60fps and 120fps is a medical marvel (or they're lying).
BOLL Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:39am 
Then I'm a medical marvel! Because I can clearly feel the difference between 72 Hz and 120 Hz! (Quest & Index). If you cannot feel the difference even between 30 and 60 Hz, I'm not sure what to tell you, we're all different?

As a side note, me and gaming friends cannot stand flickering fluorescent lights, the 50 Hz (Europe) strobing is very noticeable to us, but for older family members and non-gaming friends, they don't detect it. I'm pretty sure the brain can adapt to how it interprets what we see, getting better at detecting strobing and various Hz. This is just my hypothesis from observation though.

After googling, it appears we have CFF around 60 Hz, meaning critical flicker fusion, where flickering vanishes. But at the same time it is mentioned that we can actually detect 500 Hz flicker as well, so it's not that our detection capabilities go away after 60 Hz, it's just what is needed for fusion. That is my read of it anyway.

So yeah, for me I wanted higher Hz because I actually benefit from it, as a medical marvel. But for you who cannot sense higher than 30 Hz, you are free to pick any headset I guess. Or benefit from being able to run on the lowest Hz setting to save on performance.
Last edited by BOLL; Jan 6, 2020 @ 12:51pm
rudygt Jan 6, 2020 @ 1:35pm 
Originally posted by DAN-di-WARhol:
Originally posted by BOLL:
Who told you the human eye operates at 60 Hz?

Look it up. You can google the question. It is a medical certainty. Birds see at a much higher frame rate, so perhaps the index is designed to future-proof technology for parrots.

As for myself, I can't accurately predict frame rates over 30fps. I can't tell the difference between 30fps, 60fps, or 90fps.

Anybody who can tell you that there is a noticeable diference between 60fps and 120fps is a medical marvel (or they're lying).

you are a troll or very unfortunate
the rest of the population whether you like it or not is superior, at being able to utilize 120hz+ refresh rates.
good day, there is no changing your mind, i hope your feelings arent hurt, but you cannot speak with conviction on this topic. you are deficient in the matter.
rudygt Jan 6, 2020 @ 1:45pm 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWZ_kWTB9w
here linus actually sighs at you idea
the bottom line is, if your video card is outputting 300 frames per second, a higher refresh rate will provide you with the most recent frame available.
edit
and if you're going to pull a gotem claiming you were referencing frame rate specifically and not refresh rate, then good on you, but we all corrected your claim to refresh rate as talking about higher frames per second was a benefit of the index when it clearly is the refresh rate.
as you can obviously run the index at 144hz and only be able to render 10 frames per second
Last edited by rudygt; Jan 6, 2020 @ 1:58pm
DAN-di-WARhol Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:27pm 
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/how-many-frames-per-second-can-the-human-eye-really-see/

My system: 2 x rtx2080ti SLI. I can't remember the last time my frame rates dropped into a perceptible range.

I've been a gamer for 30 years and I have never been able to detect higher than 35 -40 fps.

I did a test last night to see if I was unique. 10 friends. VR party. Sturmovik. We all flew at a capped 30 fps, 60fps, 90fps.

Of the 10, 5 couldn't tell any difference at all. Nobody could see a difference between 60fps and 90fps. At 60fps, 2 of the 10 saw a difference, 3 were unsure.

So yes, you may be right. Perhaps I am unique and higher frame rates are detectable (just) to some people. But how important is it if you had to REALLY concentrate to perceive the difference?

Do bear in mind that we are looking at VR here. Not monitors.

Test it out. Find out what frame rate you can detect. There's no reason to push your hardware any higher if you (like most) can't see the difference (or if you have to really concentrate to be able to detect that tiny flicker at 40fps).
rudygt Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:42pm 
rrright then. you should retract your statement about VR kits pushing 90fps and even 140fps.
they arent, they are pushing 90hz and 120hz and 144hz refresh rates. and is very misleading as the devices themselves do not render, or generate any frames period.

if you want to argue fps doesnt matter then by all means, maybe in a new topic? we were trying to enlighten you on refresh rates which is completely different from frame rates. i think we all assumed you meant refresh rates.
so yeah with a gtx 1070 at 144hz you likely will not have any screen tearing, ghosting, so on so forth higher refresh rates provide and have all of the benefits of smooth frame rates around 60 fps

Originally posted by DAN-di-WARhol:
Can someone answer me this: Why are VR kits pushing 90fps and even 140fps when the human eye can only detect 60fps? It seems like a waste of tech to me.

edited to say SLI is dead, i assume you mean nvlink and its for quadro related purposes
and for that, maybe should of gotten a titan card? ugh. why 2 2080 ti's? do they actually run in profiles for alternating frame rendering for 4k content?
Last edited by rudygt; Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:46pm
BOLL Jan 7, 2020 @ 2:18am 
Originally posted by DAN-di-WARhol:
Do bear in mind that we are looking at VR here. Not monitors.
Also a gamer of 30+ years here 😅

As a side note, did you turn off any type of reprojection during your VR party? SteamVR and the Oculus runtime both have their own versions which will, even if you render very few frames, re-distort them to keep the frame-rate constant in the headset itself.
I've had as low as 4 fps and the headset was still reprojecting, that was pretty nuts though, hurray for doing beta testing 🤣

Having done it on a monitor might have made more sense in this case, unless you actually did disable all types of reprojection.
If you feel like it, check out this[www.testufo.com] quick motion test displaying 60, 30 and 15 fps next to each other. It should work on most desktop monitors as 60 Hz is pretty much the baseline among screens. Still no difference between 30 and 60?
Last edited by BOLL; Jan 7, 2020 @ 2:22am
DAN-di-WARhol Jan 7, 2020 @ 4:11am 
Refresh rate in hertz means "times refreshed per second".

Can someone explain to me (without being a prick - I skip those posts) what the difference between " the number of times the vr set resets the image " and fps "the number of times the vr set changes the image"

I have assumed that The Index 144hz refresh means that it is capable of 144fps. That is what happens with monitors, after all. Am I wrong? Or are these people quibbling over syntax?
Last edited by DAN-di-WARhol; Jan 7, 2020 @ 4:13am
DAN-di-WARhol Jan 7, 2020 @ 4:14am 
Thanks Boll, I'll try that.
BOLL Jan 7, 2020 @ 4:56am 
Hz and fps are technically not the same thing, I'm at fault here for using them interchangeably. Hz would be the update rate of the display and fps would be the rate at which the game is rendering frames. My head just never differentiates between these when talking about it, whelp 😬

The Index headset can run at 80, 90, 120 and 144 Hz, it's possible to pick whatever suits you or your system. Then as I mentioned, regardless of what fps the game renders at, the runtime will reproject it to the Hz of the headset, unless the system is really bogged down. This to keep it comfortable for the user.

Honestly haven't read all replies to this thread, but I hope this was it 😅
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Date Posted: Jan 5, 2020 @ 2:24pm
Posts: 49