Ok So tell me....

[Rising Gale]

I am curious why do you all think that NGS combat is better? I feel like base the perfect attack system and variety in PAs even back when EP3 was end game felt alot better. I genuinely dont understand to me NGS feels like all im doing is mashing it doesnt feel nearly as good to fight and I am curious as to why most players think NGS has better combat.

[FrigidMesa]

If you want to get a good feel of how much has changed. Go play on one of the challenge blocks for about five minutes and you will understand just how far we have come. Very few of the old melee classes felt even remotely good to play at base and the movement is super stilted. While yes the perfect attack system was a good idea it's about the only thing better than the more polished ngs combat. A lot of weapons feel good to use in Ngs compared to base and class is more down to preference rather than play-ability. People tend to forget that only melee weapons had weapon actions and most were super janky. of the non scion classes bouncer was probably the only one that really got weapon actions right and while soaring blades are much better in ngs(they are basically a hybrid of the etoile soaring blades with the bouncer weapon action) I do think jet boots were better done in base. the only significant things missing in Ngs that will hopefully get added at some point is weapon focus and perfect attacks. But force and tecter are just better across the board 100%.

[Dynemanti]

Perfect attacks were not skill based, you learned the muscle memory and timing and just pressed them. No skill, just a tiny bit of practice, their timing did not change based on anything. NGS on the other hand has replaced this focus with the focus on using counters, something that takes more skill, by miles. Each enemy is different and combinations of enemies will change the windows drastically. Each weapon has different timings and ranges, all of them are the best option for DPS making it worth learning how to use each weapons counter properly and learn the attack patterns of every single enemy you can.

Additionally several of them having special skills that enhance their counters in a myriad of ways that make each class feel even more unique beyond just "different PAs". Rifle get's grenade reloads, rod gets photon bullets, Knuckles gets double counters, sword gets a boosted finisher damage, takt gets a 2 charge build up toss, wand gets parry explosions, boots shoots a projectile that deals elemental damage, partizan gets bonuses that stack onto it's next charged weapon action, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Each weapon is way more skill based to deal max DPS with counters than it ever was with "perfect attacks" they literally took less than 20 minutes to "master" and worked with exactly the same timing on a dagan as they did on primordial darkness.

As far as "Lot's of PAs" this is also a fallacy, each weapon had 4 usable PAs (if that) and a bunch of garbage PAs that were useless, massively lower dps, or were outclassed by other PAs on the same weapon that fulfilled the same role but were just easier to use and hit more targets. You'd often just spam a single one over and over for the max DPS and another one for maximum AoE, with one dedicated fully to JUST being movement with no other valid use.

Meanwhile almost every weapon in NGS has a max single target DPS PA, a PA which maintains dps while letting you reposition, a PA that does AoE, and a PA that has some kind of guard frames or super armor. This isn't even considering that EVERY weapon now has a weapon action, something many of them did NOT have before, often having MULTIPLE versions of their weapon actions (normal vs hold vs WA+attack vs countered WA), they also often have special skills tied to their weapon actions, many weapons also have special "hold" attacks on their basic attacks, or have a normal-combo-skip for using the same PA twice (skipping to stage 3) or alternating PAs (skipping to stage 4) meaning the potential actions you can do at any given moment are actually MUCH more varied than PSO2's. Several more combo variations are actually valid DPS increases or situationally better for dealing with different circumstances making combat actually far more varied.

All that isn't even considering how much more effective sub class skills are in NGS vs PSO2 (where they were basically stat bonuses + maybe ONE active and a bunch of % passives) and how much more variation and customization multi-weapons add to the game.

[Didaibr]

I hate perfect attack system, that was the reason I stopped playing, I understand if it was for some classes and some PA but FOR EVERY SINGLE ACTION is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid!!!

[Rising Gale]

引用自 Dynemanti：

Perfect attacks were not skill based, you learned the muscle memory and timing and just pressed them. No skill, just a tiny bit of practice, their timing did not change based on anything. NGS on the other hand has replaced this focus with the focus on using counters, something that takes more skill, by miles. Each enemy is different and combinations of enemies will change the windows drastically. Each weapon has different timings and ranges, all of them are the best option for DPS making it worth learning how to use each weapons counter properly and learn the attack patterns of every single enemy you can.

Additionally several of them having special skills that enhance their counters in a myriad of ways that make each class feel even more unique beyond just "different PAs". Rifle get's grenade reloads, rod gets photon bullets, Knuckles gets double counters, sword gets a boosted finisher damage, takt gets a 2 charge build up toss, wand gets parry explosions, boots shoots a projectile that deals elemental damage, partizan gets bonuses that stack onto it's next charged weapon action, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Each weapon is way more skill based to deal max DPS with counters than it ever was with "perfect attacks" they literally took less than 20 minutes to "master" and worked with exactly the same timing on a dagan as they did on primordial darkness.

As far as "Lot's of PAs" this is also a fallacy, each weapon had 4 usable PAs (if that) and a bunch of garbage PAs that were useless, massively lower dps, or were outclassed by other PAs on the same weapon that fulfilled the same role but were just easier to use and hit more targets. You'd often just spam a single one over and over for the max DPS and another one for maximum AoE, with one dedicated fully to JUST being movement with no other valid use.

Meanwhile almost every weapon in NGS has a max single target DPS PA, a PA which maintains dps while letting you reposition, a PA that does AoE, and a PA that has some kind of guard frames or super armor. This isn't even considering that EVERY weapon now has a weapon action, something many of them did NOT have before, often having MULTIPLE versions of their weapon actions (normal vs hold vs WA+attack vs countered WA), they also often have special skills tied to their weapon actions, many weapons also have special "hold" attacks on their basic attacks, or have a normal-combo-skip for using the same PA twice (skipping to stage 3) or alternating PAs (skipping to stage 4) meaning the potential actions you can do at any given moment are actually MUCH more varied than PSO2's. Several more combo variations are actually valid DPS increases or situationally better for dealing with different circumstances making combat actually far more varied.

All that isn't even considering how much more effective sub class skills are in NGS vs PSO2 (where they were basically stat bonuses + maybe ONE active and a bunch of % passives) and how much more variation and customization multi-weapons add to the game.

I still prefer base's combat again feels less mashy to me but this is exactly the kind of answer I wanted making this post I wanted an explanation to understand why people prefer NGS. This is much better than just ranting saying something is just "bad" rather than explaining what you mean.

[Gilver Redgrave]

I only know a few people that really believe the NGS system is better. We all agree its more fluid yes but the system isnt really better.

Perfect attack:
Pretty much a system that preventet people to go auto pilot like in NGS. Why people hated Perfect attack ? Because they couldnt Auto Pilot without getting DPS punishment for it.

Movement Abilitys:
Thats a hard topic for sure. Currently just running around feels to rewarding. I mean you can simply run out of any AoE while in base you had to use your abilitys and get outta there. On the other hand spamming your skills for movement drained your PP really fast and it was annoying. So both systems have their flaw hoowever i believe the NGS running system to be completely broken.

Blocking / Countering:
Back in base that was class specific gameplay mechanic. Now in NGS its the literal game mechanic unless youre Ranger. This made the game extremely easy on top of how easy it has become because of the new runnign mechanic. If you cant run out just stay still and counter that simple. That also makes playing different classes kinda always feel the same. No matter what you play you will always result into the counter gameplay because its a core mechanic now.....unless youre a poor Ranger.

Support Gameplay:
There is none. Support players will be strongly dissapointed in NGS because all you do with Techter is hitting Shifta/Deband every few minutes. Compare that with the base game and the NGS version of Techter feels like a Beta Test.

Skills:
In NGS you mostly use 2 skills. 1 for AoE and 1 for single Target. Hell Katana Braver even has the gameplay Mechanic that you use a skill multiple times. Hell at a point the Dive skill was so broken it outperformed every skill of every class and it does not have a cooldown. On top of that Sega releases "new skills" that became pointless right the moment they released. Backhand Slap anyone ? Releasing new skills makes no sense unless Sega balances the kits first.


So yeah there is alot wrong with NGS combat. Base PSO combat isnt perfect far from it but at least it felt like a working system. NGS ? Last time my cat walked over my keyboard and killed a spawn of PSE Burst enemys.

[Gilver Redgrave]

引用自 Shirokami：

Ranger has dodge counter into mine or grenade launcher what.

Have fun using it. Regular Dodge is 100% more reliable.

引用自 Shirokami：

Support gameplay is elemental downs, physical downs boosted by Bouncer, Ranger weak bullet, Techter shifta/deband.

Thats not support gameplay do you even play support in any game ? Everything you named is something that happens while you hit the enemy. And Techter aswell as Ranger just hit 1 button.

引用自 Shirokami：

As a SB bouncer, I use all PAs. Raving Falcon for ranged consistent DPS and cleave AoE, Kestrel for down/break phases, Roaring for chase PA, Stork for circle AoE and vertical height adjustment.

Why not just stay at the bosses face and spam your strongest ability like everyone else ? Oh.Ohhhhhh. SB Bouncer. The class Sega completely ruined in NGS. The class that gets no love like ever. Why are you a burden to the other players on purpose ?

(That with the burden was a joke chill ya ballz guys)

[Gilver Redgrave]

引用自 Shirokami：

It comes close second to Katana in terms of DPS tho?

Support in PSO2 was also all attacking.

Would be new news to me that SB deals that amounts of damage. If thats true then why do people complain about SB damage for over a year now ? Weird.

And yeh you just proved you never played Support. Techter did much more in base PSO2 then just attack.

- Healing
- Dispel
- Pulling enemys
- Creating constant extra damage fields
- Shifta Deband of course
- Even Revive people if they really f*cked up

I dont know where you got the information that Support in base PSO2 was just yeeting at the enemy. Why even pick a Techter then ? The weakest class in terms of damage unless you play Gunblade Techter which was much later.

[VanillaLucia]

At least to me, I feel the combat and gameplay are ultimately a sidegrade with no real upgrades/downgrades.

• Just Attacks (or as Global knows it, Perfect Attacks) were never an indicator of actual skill or immersive gameplay. It was added because very early versions of Phantasy Star Online 2 lacked it and had an extremely simplistic and barebones form of combat that was melee-oriented (triple-input combos, single-use mappable skills, and a large bar where players can map utilities like an MMO). The immediate complaint was that the gameplay was just simple and lacking depth because you didn't have much else other than "use the best hitting attack at all times" or just beat on enemies with your default three-hit combo that every weapon had. Sega decided that to fix this, they added a red ring that gave you 30% bonus damage and forced players to stop holding or mashing the attack button.
  
  
• Just Attacks, as implemented, were never consistent either. Some classes and weapons (Bow-Braver in particular) are extremely strict about what your timing is because like a rhythm game being too late or too early was actually mechanically punishing if you were trying to be a decent or optimal player. In contrast, classes like the Gunner never really "needed" Just Attacks because you could Another S-Roll Arts everything to the point of obliterating content by ignoring one of the game's "core" combat mechanics. The only time you would ever need to really focus on Just Attacks is for Chain Break which is where not only was the Gunner was steamrolling just about everything (with absolute ease of control and player expression) but then was also hard-hitting a damage cap that so many other classes couldn't hit consistently at the time. Let's not forget as well that some classes like the Bouncer with their Jet Boots were "eased" to the point of being extremely trivial where their Variant Arts (pressing the Weapon Action during a photon art) no longer needed strict and precise timing to pull off. And if we have to get to it, you have to actively try as a Luster to miss your Just Attacks anyways. This was a mechanic Sega slapped in and never gave much rewards for other than "bigger numbers" and it's just not healthy for an action game.
  
  
• In contrast to what Phantasy Star Online 2 did, New Genesis has similar forms of "Just Attacks" that I do feel are far more engaging such as the "Drive" series of actions (waiting until an attack finishes and following up with another action). Even if it's wonky and inconvenient to use, Fearless Attitude from the Braver is also a more creative way of using a "Just Attack" as it deliberately opens up an option for the player if they choose to follow through an animation. I would much rather prefer to see something like alternative combo strings (like Devil May Cry has done if you delay your attacking inputs to a specific point in the animation) or to see something like even more expressive combos.
  
  
• Phantasy Star Online 2 has a majorly clunky combo system early on known as the "Photon Art Sequence" where you had two attack buttons and a designated Weapon Action (when applicable). Conceptually, players would be able to create their own "combos" by stringing in the numerous amount of photon arts together so that one button can pull off three attacks one after another to mimic the nature of the "Normal Attack Steps" with their three-hit combos. But as the game's balance went on, it was obvious that newer Photon Arts were meant to fix class design problems and that older Photon Arts were left behind. Episode 4 of the game would completely flip this around with the introduction of "Three Button Mode" and completely dropping the Photon Art Sequence mechanic as each button can be assigned to just one attack - and this further emphasized (with Type-0 Photon Arts and Techniques) that out of your potential ten-ish average Photon Arts (or more-than-twenty Techniques) that there were an extremely small handful that were actually tuned for an action game and to be used meaningfully. It really was not until about Episode 6 where your photon arts can also be mapped to your subpalette when suddenly you had even more input options. New Genesis completely sidesteps this problem by simply not having many options in the first place - and instead by having "one size fits all" photon arts that just do the work in a very uniform and sterilized fashion. It's very easy to play in comparison - but I don't think it's absolutely a secret how lifeless the new photon arts are in comparison for the most part.
  
  
• Phantasy Star Online 2 also has a major grind and "tutorial phase" that players need to rush through to actually start enjoying the game. If you do not reach Level 75/75 to unlock the Successor classes, you don't have the options or the toolkit to meaningfully build your class and your playstyle unless you intentionally want to spend real money or make a new character to fix the mistakes you made on spending your points on the skill tree. You can argue you don't need to be optimal - but I can't imagine someone spending points on their Hunter completely missing the essential multipliers for Fury Stance or Guard Stance because they spent so much of the points on raising S-ATK instead and having a "good time" playing the later content that clearly was more tuned to following Sega's design philosophy later on. New Genesis solves this by bringing that "level" of 75/75 combat and freedom to Level 1 so players can get started with it right off the bat. Unfortunately for New Genesis, however, its level of gameplay and depth stops there at a very barebones and shallow state as most of our gameplay is still very identical to the game's launch-state which was already known to be very shallow compared to what Phantasy Star Online 2 did especially for class identities and playstyles.
  
  
• New Genesis also suffers greatly from a distinct lack of variety or "newness" that Phantasy Star Online 2 rushed out the door with. This is a very big difference in the times as Phantasy Star Online 2 was a product of quantity over quality (rushed updates that added new things every so often that would become sidelined, retconned, buried away, or even just be distractions because there was no real "content" that would be meaningful due to the vertical progression). New Genesis instead for about a year had its updates coming out at such a slow pace that every six months you would have expected the size of a "small" Phantasy Star Online 2 update - but unfortunately even those updates have the same sort of air of being rushed, short-lived content, and ultimately being something padding and fluffing up the game with quantity because Sega has no real incentive to provide meaningful content. The most you would have ever seen of this was back in Episode 6 when Sega launched Divide Quests (something that clearly went against their original designs but was done because of how catastrophic Episode 5 was). But to the point, New Genesis barely spends time doing anything "new" and is currently recycling and rerunning things we've already seen in Phantasy Star Online 2 for better or worse - which unfortunately includes the bloat and problems Phantasy Star Online 2 did have.

I personally would not mind if New Genesis dropped its combat system to be just more "streamlined" to be something more akin to how games like Devil May Cry and Kingdom Hearts has their action playing out. Players who want to mash buttons can mash all the buttons they want and still do meaningfully well (considering how Rangers can just hold the Normal Attack all day in New Genesis) and players who really want to be more skillful can be more deliberate about how they play and behave in combat. I feel there's room in the game to be expressive and to have this variety - but I don't feel Sega's solution of having something like "extra damage" for following a red ring is a very good solution to forcing players to play one way over the other.

There are a bucket list of issues I have especially regarding things like controller inputs, the accessibility of the options we do have, and how lopsided the gameplay is in favor of melee combat (from a controls standpoint) that I really do feel that Sega needs a bigger redesign and overhaul of how the gameplay feels and works to make the game more meaningful. Something like having "stances/states" for photon arts for classes like the Braver and Ranger (pressing a photon art would put the user into a state where a designated shoot button will unleash that photon art as long as something like a hold-to-aim button is pressed, if it is something the player wants) would be an immediate game changer for players who actually want to properly snipe enemies or take advantage of attacks that do penetrate groups. To add to that, having a way to more easily access the subpalette (or the bloat Technique classes already have) would be greatly appreciated as the Talis in particular has a minimum of seven shoot buttons when I'm fairly convinced it could easily be condensed to just one button with something like a selection wheel (select the element, set up your photon art, and shoot away with easier controls especially on controller).

[Gilver Redgrave]

Forgot to mention that NGS also lags major Boss mechanics like the base game. All the Bosses are balanced so that they work as a Veteran Spawn which makes UQ feel rather bland.

There is currently only 1 boss with a major game mechanic and thats Dark Falz. But not the regular one it has to be the 4 man Trigger version. If you dont know about his Second Phase Dive youre done. Break him so he skips it or evade his bombardement and dive or else youre dead.

So yeah the "challenging" content in the game has even been downgraded so much a 5 year old could compete in it. This game is over 1 year old now and we only have 1 Boss where you need to care about any kind of mechanic. The other bosses are just :" Hit him. Very hard."

[Hermit]

引用自 Rising Gale：

I am curious why do you all think that NGS combat is better?

But I don't think it's better. I think it can be fun at times, but in no way do I think it's better.

[pseudo]

>counters take more skill by miles
>pa circles are just timing because muscle memory
bruh what kind of smooth brain take is that answer? They're literally the same skill. Learn timing -> memorise timing -> apply timing to best of ability.

[Izlude]

引用自 Rising Gale：

I am curious why do you all think that NGS combat is better? I feel like base the perfect attack system and variety in PAs even back when EP3 was end game felt alot better. I genuinely dont understand to me NGS feels like all im doing is mashing it doesnt feel nearly as good to fight and I am curious as to why most players think NGS has better combat.

NGS combat is oversimplified and they even give you an option for the game to autopick the best PA for you in every situation. When you do that to your game you chase away anyone looking for a good action game since even stuff as simple as dmc2 is seen as awful for an action game. Hence the current situation where 90% of the remaining playerbase just wants to rp and play dressup.

[EggBread]

The combat is way better. What isn't better though is the skill tree system. There is zero customization to better suit your playstyle. So while it's a million times more fun, it also becomes way drier more quickly.

On a side note, this game feels the best on controller, while simultaneously impossible to play certain classes on controller. They really should have designed certain classes better like Force, Techter, and Bouncer. The extra PA's essentially cannot be used which is sad.

[Gilver Redgrave]

引用自 Dynemanti：

Perfect attacks were not skill based, you learned the muscle memory and timing and just pressed them. No skill, just a tiny bit of practice, their timing did not change based on anything. NGS on the other hand has replaced this focus with the focus on using counters, something that takes more skill

Its both the same.
If an enemy prepares for attack my muscle memory will prepare the counter. Hand to eye coordination.

Also you cant say something isnt skill based when you said in the same sentence you have to "learn" the muscle memory. Muscle memory isnt something everyone learn equaly its a real skill you need to aquire even in real life. Without muscle memory you cant even participate in most sports. Muscle memory is not a rythmus game. If one Boxer wants to punch the other you muscle memory prepares the block or counter depending on what your eyes see.

[Prokaizer]

引用自 Gilver Redgrave：

引用自 Shirokami：

It comes close second to Katana in terms of DPS tho?

Support in PSO2 was also all attacking.

Would be new news to me that SB deals that amounts of damage. If thats true then why do people complain about SB damage for over a year now ? Weird.

And yeh you just proved you never played Support. Techter did much more in base PSO2 then just attack.

- Healing
- Dispel
- Pulling enemys
- Creating constant extra damage fields
- Shifta Deband of course
- Even Revive people if they really f*cked up

I dont know where you got the information that Support in base PSO2 was just yeeting at the enemy. Why even pick a Techter then ? The weakest class in terms of damage unless you play Gunblade Techter which was much later.

The moment they removed all of these buffs, they killed the combat of the game tbh.

Bouncer could even animation cancel into Shifta / Deband + extend it with Klauz S affixes.
There was even a ring that helped you instant cast on parry and you could last stage heal all of your group members.
Casting Dark field = full heal, casting wind = more DPS etc.

The game lacks variety and roles.

Now like you said everyone have block, everyone can multiweapon whatever they want, weapons do not have unique powers like in base game.
Each freaking weapon had different unique abillity in base game, in NGS it is just "o hey get extra crit, or extra potency, or maybe a shield every 30 seconds".
Seince the release of the game you can always see the same abillities in newer tier weapons.

Where is the creativity?