Yo-yo DPS -- does Ruthless beat Godly without accessory modifiers? Knockback?

[VicPariah]

Yeah, so I have the Code 1 yo-yo right now and it's a great weapon pre-hardmode for me. I can utterly obliterate zombies and it's a cinch to kill demon eyes, much better than using a spear-type weapon, and especially easier to use than the Harpoon Gun.

My curiosity is about if the critical strike chance for Godly by itself actually make it a faster kill than the +18% damage with Ruthless? I don't really consider, especially with the Code 1's weak knockback, the -15% knockback modifier to be of any real concern with the yo-yo.

Also, I don't have any items in my accessory slots that make my critical chance go up, nor my base damage. I do know that if I did have some, I would skip the Ruthless modifier and go for the Godly just to rack up the additional critical points.

But I haven't played enough Terraria with yo-yos. Does anyone specifically prefer the Ruthless modifier for yo-yo kills, sacrificing that little bit of knockback?

[chimaera.]

Ruthless and Godly are exactly the same..?

[Saver Sigonith]

I mean... it just depends what you're doing with it I guess?
What is it you're up to that a 15% knockback difference is even noticeable?

[VicPariah]

They're not exactly the same!

It depends on build, right? Accessory slot modifier setup.

Knockback is more powerful in yo-yo weapons later in the game, so yeah you're right it's a moot issue. I'm really versatile while using the weapon; I'm not pushed back into corners or anything like that.

Godly: 15% damage and 5% critical would be absolutely great with five really good accessories with +4% critical chance each, whatever the name of that modifier is. You'll have a yo-yo that basically has double attack more than a quarter (29%) of the time.

Ruthless: 18% damage stacked with a +20% damage modifier? If you were that lucky... +38% damage is more reliable than banking on critical chance. Right?

[Zemecon]

Ruthless will be better. The extra damage should account for the lower crit chance plus the lack of knockback. Don't forget, you still have a chance for a critical hit with the Ruthless modifier. It's just lower. The lack of knockback should raise that.

[Saver Sigonith]

Yeah, I guess.
I think the real point is that that 3 extra damage or whatever doesn't have a huge gameplay impact, so there's not much point stressing over it. :P
Both are perfectly good modifiers, and you'll probably get something better before too long anyway.

[Zemecon]

Ruthless is better all around for yoyos so it is a good thing to remember whenever you get a yoyo of any kind. One exception might be the Terrarian because it is partly ranged but aside from that you should be going with Ruthless all around if you can afford it.

[chimaera.]

Personally i prefer Ruthless too but theres not a very big difference

[VicPariah]

Originally posted by Maomag:

Ruthless will be better. The extra damage should account for the lower crit chance plus the lack of knockback. Don't forget, you still have a chance for a critical hit with the Ruthless modifier. It's just lower. The lack of knockback should raise that.

Hi,

When you say that the lack of knockback should raise the low critical hit chance, what do you mean? Will the yo-yo have more hits because the enemy isn't pushed backward?

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by V-Pariah:

Originally posted by Maomag:

Ruthless will be better. The extra damage should account for the lower crit chance plus the lack of knockback. Don't forget, you still have a chance for a critical hit with the Ruthless modifier. It's just lower. The lack of knockback should raise that.

Hi,

When you say that the lack of knockback should raise the low critical hit chance, what do you mean? Will the yo-yo have more hits because the enemy isn't pushed backward?

Yes, that would be correct. The more hits you can get on an enemy mob, the higher your chance of landing a critical hit. Which would not matter as much if the extra damage for Ruthless weren't counted in, but realize that the number of damage a critical hit does depends on the base damage. So Ruthless actually deals out higher critical hits than Godly dies. Add to that the lack of knockback and you get almost the same chance the Ruthless modifier will get you a critical hit that you do with the Godly modifier.

[Tymon]

Honestly, I personally prefer demonic to godly and ruthless both. Lower damage than ruthless, but higher critical rate and it doesn't increase knockback like godly so you still generally get the same amount of hits as with ruthless nine times out of ten.

[VicPariah]

To be honest, I think that depends on the strength of the knockback for the yo-yo. Probably works great for my weapon since it's got weak level instead of the higher quality weapons.

What yo-yo did you have in mind when you mentioned the Demonic modifier? Was it a particular one?

[Tymon]

Honestly no, it wasn't really a particular one. In most cases the damage difference between ruthless and demonic or godly isn't honestly that much after factoring in defense. (Especially in expert mode). 5% increase in critical hits might not sound like much, but that's a 1 in 20 chance at the end of the day off that modifier alone to do double damage. Whereas ruthless is only a +3% raw damage difference per hit. Ignoring knockback, overall statwise demonic or godly is -3% +5%. I've generally tested and overall, I seem to do higher DPS with demonic than I do with ruthless even without modifiers. HOWEVER.... This is also an RNG based thing due to criticals not being reliable. So at the end of the day your mileage may vary.

[chimaera.]

Originally posted by Tymon:

Honestly no, it wasn't really a particular one. In most cases the damage difference between ruthless and demonic or godly isn't honestly that much after factoring in defense. (Especially in expert mode). 5% increase in critical hits might not sound like much, but that's a 1 in 20 chance at the end of the day off that modifier alone to do double damage. Whereas ruthless is only a +3% raw damage difference per hit. Ignoring knockback, overall statwise demonic or godly is -3% +5%. I've generally tested and overall, I seem to do higher DPS with demonic than I do with ruthless even without modifiers. HOWEVER.... This is also an RNG based thing due to criticals not being reliable. So at the end of the day your mileage may vary.

OH!!! It was Demonic and Godly that are the exect same???? Ohhhhhh

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by Tymon:

Honestly no, it wasn't really a particular one. In most cases the damage difference between ruthless and demonic or godly isn't honestly that much after factoring in defense. (Especially in expert mode). 5% increase in critical hits might not sound like much, but that's a 1 in 20 chance at the end of the day off that modifier alone to do double damage. Whereas ruthless is only a +3% raw damage difference per hit. Ignoring knockback, overall statwise demonic or godly is -3% +5%. I've generally tested and overall, I seem to do higher DPS with demonic than I do with ruthless even without modifiers. HOWEVER.... This is also an RNG based thing due to criticals not being reliable. So at the end of the day your mileage may vary.

You would need to ignore knockback for crit chance to be a reasonable variable, though. Ruthless is +18% every single hit. You lose DPS when you have knockback. Percent chances aren't constant. You can use a yoyo or any other melee weapon for a solid 5 minutes or more and still not get a critical hit but increased base damage adds up. The time it takes for an extra amount of damage from a +18% damage modifier is a full 17% faster than a +15% modifier. Add in the knockback and there you go. You do the math. If you think a critical strike happens reliably at - say - every 5th or 10th hit then I'd say you've fallen victim to the Gambler's Fallacy.

EDIT: Fixed two typos and added a sentence.

[Tymon]

Originally posted by Maomag:

You would need to ignore knockback for crit chance to be a reasonable variable, though. Rithless is +18% every single hit. You lose DPS when you have knockback. Percent chances aren't constant. You can use a yoyo or any other melee weapon for a solid 5 minutes or more and still not get a critical hit but increased base damage adds up. The time it takes for an extra amount of damage from a +18% damage modifier is a full 17% faster than a +15% modifier. Add in the knockback and there you go. If you thing a critical strike happens reliably at - say - every 5th or 10th hit then I'd say you've fallen victim to the Gambler's Fallacy.

That's honestly not entirely true. Outside of outright infinite duration yoyos you can only keep a yoyo out for a certain duration anyway, so you'd only get so many hits on an enemy regardless of knockback, plus if you've got stuff like a yoyo glove, it can make knockback have almost zero impact whatsoever. And then you have the terrarian. Knockback is irrelevant since most of the damage is going to be from the homing projectiles rather than the yoyo itself. As I already stated earlier though, 'your mileage may vary'. I've tested ruthless vs demonic and roughly eight times out of ten tests my overall DPS according to the DPS meter was higher using demonic.
-Edited to add another point
Also, most bosses are entirely immune to knockback, and most endgame enemies are also highly resistant to it so knockback is equally irrelevant.