AI behaviours within your own community

[arcana75]

I recently attacked a neutral community that I've both done missions for and recruited from. Using a recently recruited looter I went over and pipebombed their buildings.

When I returned someone in my community attacked me which triggered the entire base to attack me. I fled my own base and when I got out of range I came back in and it was as if nothing happened.

I figure this is likely due to someone from that community responding to this particular person's attacks. I'm of two minds about this AI behaviour. I think it's interesting that my community members have such aspects to their behaviour, makes the game deeper that actions have consequences and my community isn't just made up of mindless drones. It goes deeper if the actions are confined to that one person I used. In that sense he was a patsy, a fall guy, the actions of a lone looter.

But on the fliip side it makes the game abit unpredictable not in a good way, like the game is out of control. So yeah not sure...

[CellNav]

Well, if you recruited someone from another community, then I would think their memories include the other community, so if you attack that said community then expect someone to flip out in your community?

I came across something (might be off topic). I walked into a camp and traded a few things. I noticed around the corner of a building a dead body, so I approached the body to see who it was. Apparently one member flipped out, accusing me of murder ... bang bang dead. Clearly the person died of starvation, apparently the AI doesn't know that ... :(

Anyway, perhaps the tangled web of relations still need work? Otherwise I'm with you ... not sure yet.

[2tecs]

I agree arcana. I do like that people dont become drons as soon as you recruit them, it gives a lot more life to the group knowing people are unique. However I have also experienced odd things like this. Once i recruited a refugee (so no possible alliegence issues) and as soon as i walked them into my compound one of my people immediately opened up on them. It didn't happen again after re-loading so someone suggested maybe its just a bug.
I do like that sometimes people will do their own things, for better or for worse, but it would be good if maybe people took it out just on them, rather than going to war with your whole community. I remember i had to switch characters because of a raid and left my guy in another camp, i thought it would be safe. but after a bit they did something while I wasnt controlling them or looking (idk what, maybe hungry and grabbed one of their crops) and they all attacked him. a touch more control would be good but idk the best way to implement something like that

[CellNav]

One thing I noticed (because my PC is a farmer) ... Relationship building.

I use the other characters to run around doing odd manual jobs. Every day I control my PC (with a brain scanner) and talk to everyone ... sure enough, the attitude changes since the last time I talked with them.

In a nutshell ... When I control my PC and notice a conversation between the others, I will slowly approach them to eves drop and not "burst the bubble" (so to speak). It can be interesting to hear what they talk about. Also, if any member appears to walk towards me, I will stop in my tracks ... sure enough they just wanted to chat with my PC.

You guys that have many members in your community, perhaps you should spend a day doing nothing but listen and interact with them ... instead of killing zombies or whatever you guys do for fun.

[sf]

Perhaps related, I find recruiting from other communities troublesome. Have had a guy from a local community which later got wiped out. The guy then left my community for "your leadership sux". Investigating using the debug tool from earlier save, I think I am getting blamed for his morale being low under my leadership, but the causes of that low morale was due to his previous community, e.g. stuff getting burned down by looters etc.

iow, my leadership was blamed for other community's crap. Good riddance. And I'll prob never recruit from local community again. Just stick to refugees which doesn't even need relationship improvement most of the time and becomes very content after I get them food and shelter.

Maybe I'll changed my mind if the system ever gets improved....

[Fleringe]

i always recruit from refugees and defaeted looters and i rarly have leavers
without interacting with main character to other members

[arcana75]

Originally posted by Fleringe:

i always recruit from refugees and defaeted looters and i rarly have leavers
without interacting with main character to other members

Be careful recruiting looters if they surrendered. If you get the chance you'll see that person spreading "cheer" about you to other community members. I dunno what that actually does, but the impression is that it can affect other members' opinion of you.

Things like "I'll never forgive xxx for killing yyy", or "with xxx it's always one thing or another"...

[Fleringe]

yeah it affects them allot but they all fear me so they wount leave and if i dont recruit they all becoming very trusting again.

i have had collonies with 30 pop and nobady left unles newly recruited

[arcana75]

Originally posted by 2tecs:

idk the best way to implement something like that

I toyed with the idea of the brain scanner showing abit more detail about the person, eg a few lines of biography or id, eg "Was from xxx community", "hates sci-fi novels", etc stuff to suggest what motivates the person.

Maybe an upgraded brainscanner from a high level building eg construction 5 at a workbench with existing brainscanner. Maybe add a radio & chicken wire as additional parts.

Sparked another thought. electronics & electrical parts are strangely absent from the game, eg batteries, circuit boards, laptops and smartphones, etc etc.

[Fleringe]

Originally posted by arcana75:

Originally posted by 2tecs:

idk the best way to implement something like that

I toyed with the idea of the brain scanner showing abit more detail about the person, eg a few lines of biography or id, eg "Was from xxx community", "hates sci-fi novels", etc stuff to suggest what motivates the person.

Maybe an upgraded brainscanner from a high level building eg construction 5 at a workbench with existing brainscanner. Maybe add a radio & chicken wire as additional parts.

Sparked another thought. electronics & electrical parts are strangely absent from the game, eg batteries, circuit boards, laptops and smartphones, etc etc.

i wouldnt want it to make it buildeble it would be to easy to come bye them its good thats its an hard item to find in the maps cause its an bigger challange + its fun clearing all towns of zombies :p.

i love that part of the game

also killing traders helps to higher the chance to gain the item cause there are always 2 trade parties on the map.

[arcana75]

Originally posted by Fleringe:

Originally posted by arcana75:

I toyed with the idea of the brain scanner showing abit more detail about the person, eg a few lines of biography or id, eg "Was from xxx community", "hates sci-fi novels", etc stuff to suggest what motivates the person.

Maybe an upgraded brainscanner from a high level building eg construction 5 at a workbench with existing brainscanner. Maybe add a radio & chicken wire as additional parts.

Sparked another thought. electronics & electrical parts are strangely absent from the game, eg batteries, circuit boards, laptops and smartphones, etc etc.

i wouldnt want it to make it buildeble it would be to easy to come bye them its good thats its an hard item to find in the maps cause its an bigger challange + its fun clearing all towns of zombies :p.

i love that part of the game

also killing traders helps to higher the chance to gain the item cause there are always 2 trade parties on the map.

Then... don't... use... it?

[CellNav]

If not already mentioned .... When I had an ex-looter npc, the brain scanner indicated she was FEAR but right near the line of DESPISE.

She left me when the indicator crossed the line to DESPISE.

My thinking is this .... PC Traits ... If we want to be a tough guy to maintain FEAR after recruiting slaves (for a better word), then we need to set our initial traits to be that person. That person that we need to be needs to fit our play style. We cannot set our traits to be a good person and then turn around and be evil and good ... We need to set our traits to be Doctor Evil, and we need our npc's to have laser beams on their heads (kidding).

If you want to be John Malkovich (movie), then you have to BE John Malkovich !!!

[arcana75]

Originally posted by CellNav:

If not already mentioned .... When I had an ex-looter npc, the brain scanner indicated she was FEAR but right near the line of DESPISE.

She left me when the indicator crossed the line to DESPISE.

My thinking is this .... PC Traits ... If we want to be a tough guy to maintain FEAR after recruiting slaves (for a better word), then we need to set our initial traits to be that person. That person that we need to be needs to fit our play style. We cannot set our traits to be a good person and then turn around and be evil and good ... We need to set our traits to be Doctor Evil, and we need our npc's to have laser beams on their heads (kidding).

If you want to be John Malkovich (movie), then you have to BE John Malkovich !!!

Interestingly if you talk to low morale community members to "get going", the next dialog options are indeed based on your MC's traits, with options enabled/disabled. If you tried to select a disabled option the game says you don't have the trait for this option. So for example my MC is compassionate so I have a "someone needs a hug!" option, but the option "time to man up!" is greyed out. The brain scanner shows the usual green zone thing to indicate effectiveness of the option which likely matches with the target's traits so it'll work for some not others.

With the gifts of books, it doesn't actually show the effectiveness of sci-fi or detective novels but clearly different people prefer different novels from their responses. Also seems like the only thing gift-able now are these 2 novels nothing else but it hints at the potential future.

If the complexity of member to member interactions is going to be increased, then mechanisms need to be added into the game to help reveal or hint at them, otherwise much of it will feel random & out of control. Like my own community turning on me.

[CellNav]

Originally posted by arcana75:

If the complexity of member to member interactions is going to be increased, then mechanisms need to be added into the game to help reveal or hint at them, otherwise much of it will feel random & out of control. Like my own community turning on me.

I think that could be a good idea in the form of LBD (Learn By Doing). We can have a Personality Trait that adapts to the on going scenario.

You know ... Instead of locking the dialog, it's available but the "strength" of the dialog (like skill levels) determine it's effectiveness. Since relationships drift towards the center (pip in brain scanner), then the skill's effectiveness can drift away (meaning the more you use it, you won't lose it) ... so to speak.

EDIT: ... In other words, you have to keep up the appearance you are bossy, otherwise they might think you're a softy ... :P

[arcana75]

Originally posted by CellNav:

Originally posted by arcana75:

If the complexity of member to member interactions is going to be increased, then mechanisms need to be added into the game to help reveal or hint at them, otherwise much of it will feel random & out of control. Like my own community turning on me.

I think that could be a good idea in the form of LBD (Learn By Doing). We can have a Personality Trait that adapts to the on going scenario.

You know ... Instead of locking the dialog, it's available but the "strength" of the dialog (like skill levels) determine it's effectiveness. Since relationships drift towards the center (pip in brain scanner), then the skill's effectiveness can drift away (meaning the more you use it, you won't lose it) ... so to speak.

EDIT: ... In other words, you have to keep up the appearance you are bossy, otherwise they might think you're a softy ... :P

Well people can change, esp during tough circumstances. So while we can start with a certain trait, we should be allowed to take on a difference stance. Granted perhaps the initial attempts will seem fake and weak and thus ineffective but after awhile we should get better. So in terms of interactions, not only do people's responses change based on external factors, people's ability to initiate should also be changing.

In other words, if every AI has a Hate/Admire/Fear/Despise chart on the listening side, there should be another chart on the speaking side. I believe that is what the developer is aiming for if based on the types of responses available for low morale people.

[sf]

Originally posted by Ancron:

Is there a way to see persons morale rating? I have 24 people in my camp, largest community on map and occasionally I get :( icon on people. They usually sit around booze chest drinking unless I walk up to them and do the "it will get better" line. All 24 people have admire maxed but they say that we are doomed etc. No one left yet either.

Respect (for the leader) and morale are two different things, though the leader may lose respect if the person has low morale for extended period of time.

afaik, morale is determined by (recent?) memories. You can get a "feel" of it by asking "how are you doing?" in conversation. The person will talk about recent memories and then conclude with a summary of his/her current morale.