Where do Gunslingers actually fit in?

[PirateMouse]

So I'll preface this by admitting I haven't actually tried Gunslingers yet, but just looking at the class, I can't quite see how it comes together well. Specifically, from looking at the talent tree, I see what look to me like issues with both loadout and niche. I'll explain.

LOADOUT

In most cases, I equip characters with one "loud" weapon and one "quiet" (i.e., either a sword or a silenced semi-auto pistol) one. This allows switching between using a quiet weapon when you're trying to avoid making noise other enemies will hear and using a loud weapon when you're either far enough away that no other enemy who survives will hear or when things have heated up to where it no longer matters. I'm pretty sure this is also a common practice.

In the case of Gunslingers, the structure of their talents, with twin pistol and revolver-only talents, creates an issue here. Here's why:

Say you want to go with twin silenced semi-autos to be stealthy: well, now you're effectively locked out of all revolver-only moves (i.e., Finger Trick, Fanning and Ricochet).

Okay, so how about one silenced semi-auto for stealth and one revolver for power? Well, now there's a problem with Twin Iron and Gun Kata: your weapon stats between the two firearms will be averaged, meaning you'll be very inefficient. And what about noise? Does the revolver's sound factor in? If so, you'll also be loud every time you use either of those talents, while also doing significantly less damage than you could have.

Okay, so what about dual revolvers? Congratulations: you can now use all talents at full effectiveness! It's just that you'll alert every enemy ever, so you'll be dead weight outside of pure combat missions.

In every case, you're having to make huge sacrifices by setting up your loadout a particular way, which doesn't happen with other classes like the Soldier (AR + silenced semi auto FTW!).

NICHE

Where, exactly, does the Gunslinger excel? Vanguards and Agent Exs are the rogues of Cyber Knight. Scourges are basically wizards (Tox-Cloud = Cloudkill, Brain Worm = a mix of Dominate and Confusion, Nervo-Tox Shell = any AE stun spell, etc.), which is simply AWESOME. Soldiers are ranged fighters, and so on. Soldiers are probably the closest in style to Gunslingers, but how much can Gunslingers really do that Soldiers can't? Fanning and Gun Kata let you mimic full auto? That's neat, but it's on a cooldown, while Soldiers can do it every round and even repeatedly in the same round (even three times in a row with fully upgraded Recoup!).

Meanwhile, Soldiers either have superior range (with a regular AR) or even more superior DPS (with an urban AR). There are a few cool-looking moves like Ricochet and Called Shot, but do they really make up the difference?

THAT SAID ...

Hey, maybe I'm wrong! I'd really like to be. Can someone tell me what I'm missing here, what makes Gunslingers worth messing with? If you've tried one and know, by all means, sell me on this! As it is, they just look to me mostly like weaker Soldier wannabes, but I could be way off here.

[Varis]

Which level of characters do you mostly have in mind and did you consider multiclassing?

[Trese Brothers]

Gunslinger work great with the combo of dual pistols, one pistol and one revolver or for all our battle pass, dual revolvers, or just one pistol/revolver and another non-pistol. They are the type of class best served by having a stack of pistols on the shelf waiting to swap in based on the mission type. For this they will benefit a lot from the upcoming drop-down load out switching that is coming.

The talent setup is such that you can't use all their talents anyway, so don't sweat some Talents you can't take.

In the case of Twin Irons and Gun Kata, accuracy and critical are averaged, damage is added and noise uses the higher.

The most regular stealth load out is pistol and revolver. In this case, you can't use Gun Kata or Twin Iron until the heavier shooting starts or you're position is viable with loud revolver. But they have tons of great tricks without those talents in the table. Then when the loud part starts, you've got a new bag of tricks.

Or double silence and skip Fanning, it's a good talent but you can be heck of a GS without it.

Three easy places to consider multi-class - sniper with revolver, cybersword with revolver and absolutely anyone who carries a pistol as their second, great if it is silenced.

Hope it helps!

[K0lyan]

1) concept of fast shooter - is nice. At last, I love to cancel overwatch with him or use "cheap" overwatch.
2) strange skill distribution: right now, I use double pistol. And I dislike that twin iron and gun kata are in different branches.
3) I preferred that fanning and ricochet could be used with pistols. Or maybe there should be "heavy pistol" (without rapid fire, with better damage and penetration and with possibility to equip silencer).

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Varis:

Which level of characters do you mostly have in mind and did you consider multiclassing?

Sure, I multiclass. My highest level is 10 at the moment, but mostly, I'm just not seeing much that Gunslinger could do that Soldier can't do better. I love the IDEA of the Gunslinger, but in practice, it looks a lot like working harder to accomplish less.

I might give it a try anyway, and perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised. I don't know.

[Excirial]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

Sure, I multiclass. My highest level is 10 at the moment, but mostly, I'm just not seeing much that Gunslinger could do that Soldier can't do better. I love the IDEA of the Gunslinger, but in practice, it looks a lot like working harder to accomplish less.

Looking at the gunslinger class talents, i think they have the potential to be superior to a soldier in terms of DPS and close-combat fighting, at the cost of being less versatile:

1. Revolvers have the highest DPS in the game. Being able to fire two the same time at an AP discount with Twin Iron (Which upgraded equals two shots for the price of one) can result in a sizeable "Damage per AP Spend" output. Mix that with other cost saving or AP returning talents and the ratio increases even further.
   
   
2. Considering the damage revolvers do, Gun Katana appears to have very good potential in clearing up grouped enemies. Or if not, to at least weaken them substantially.
   
   
3. LinkWatch provides two overwatch shots when no AP is reserved versus one for overwatch (Soldier) or deathwatch (Sniper). This is actually incredible: Overwatch type shots interrupt a hostiles turn - a single GunSlinger is therefor capable of blocking two hostiles from taking a turn if they are covered by or run into their overwatch arc. My experience with Soldier / Snipers combo's is that having multiple overlapping overwatches active is extremely effective method to prevent being shot altogether. Having multiple gunslingers would - with the right positioning - increases the effectiveness of that strategy even further.
   
   
4. It's subtle, but the Gunslingers talent to guarantee a shot while under the effect of overwatch is superior to the soldiers marker sights. Hitting a hostile cancels their overwatch, and the gunslinger can guarantee a shot on a hostile no matter how many hostile overwatches are active. Marker sights on the other hand, can just cancel the effects of a single overwatch - though arguably it IS better not to run into a situation where you have multiple hostile overwatches on your squad in the first place.

This does come with some tradeoffs however. The above argument assumes the use of two revolvers, and those are always loud. So this would - for the most part - preclude any attempts to be stealthy. Secondly, the gunslinger would be limited to the relatively short range of a revolver, rather than being able to equip two different weapon types that cover for a broader range of engagement.

That said, on maps with close quarter combat i believe that the LinkWatch talent alone would make the Gunslinger superior to my favourite "Soldier + Sniper" combo by offering two reaction shots for free. Two or three gunslingers covering a chokepoint should be nothing less than a killbox.

[Lur Nen Rue]

mate have you tried Vanguard-Gunslingers

all you need from vanguard class is the blend skill and take the 1 more charge upgrade, take silent run if you want and mostly dual gun/revolver skills

you bring 2 revolvers or maybe 1 revo 1 silent semiautos, run into pack of enemies use dual gun, then blend in their face. enemies cant do nothing about you and haven't seen your allies so they do nothing
next turn unleash gun kata, clean them all if able if not, blend again
turn 3 if there enemies left you run, gunslingers are one of the most mobile class around and have great evasion, wait until you have your cooldown to do it again

[Zarquon]

haven't played in a while. It was suggested Gunslingers should be able to melee with their guns. This would be a solution to loud revolvers problem.

I guess it wasn't implemented?

[Trese Brothers]

Originally posted by Zarquon:

haven't played in a while. It was suggested Gunslingers should be able to melee with their guns. This would be a solution to loud revolvers problem.

I guess it wasn't implemented?

No, pistol whipping did not make the cut, partially because it always turned out as a low damage attack at best with a Stun, leaving you stuck needing to shoot someone again soon.

[ian]

I'm finding that my gunslinger is awesome at just wiping out lots of enemies quickly - much better than my similar level soldier.

The combination of gun kata, twin iron, linkwatch (all maxed) and the snapshot (on the way) with some crafted guns is fantastic. In a combat mission he regularly kills 3 enemies in a turn, and he is loads better than my sniper at taking down bots.

[Trese Brothers]

To clarify for readers, that's a double revolver slinger ^^

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by ian:

The combination of gun kata, twin iron, linkwatch (all maxed) and the snapshot (on the way) with some crafted guns is fantastic. In a combat mission he regularly kills 3 enemies in a turn, and he is loads better than my sniper at taking down bots.

I mean, that's cool and all, and I'm glad people are finding they like the class, but in my experience, killing three enemies (or sometimes more) in a turn is nothing a soldier can't easily do, too. Full auto is just crazy imba whether you're going for AE or single target shooting.

But I don't know; maybe I'll try to give it a fairer shake sometime. Maybe try that cheese with combining it with Vanguard and see what I think.