Man Konami is a sad husk.

[Scase is KING of Narwhals]

Churning out nothing but half assed "classic" packs is just a sad state of affairs for such a storied company.

[emjeeman]

Originally posted by Cheese:

10+? I was talking about the games that had been mentioned and were being discussed.
If that was unclear, then I'm sorry. Let me assure you I don't need an answer for how Contra 4 is better than C: The Contra Adventure and the like. No one in the world needs that.

The exact wording in your question is "How is 4 better than other games in the series?".

The whole game is a bit boring.
In concept the ICBM thing sounds like it should be rad as hell, like platforming on missiles in Alien Wars was. But in practice it's slow paced, throws very little at you at a time, and goes on too long. When something like this that should easily be a highlight of the game just isn't very fun to play, it's a bad sign.
And the rest of the game isn't even interesting in concept. It's largely just rehashed Contra 1 stuff except not quite as good.

Yet again, it's just you that finds it boring and not fun to play. There's nothing to be said or done about that when most players of the game think the opposite of you on this. Amazing someone finds having to dodge missiles while jumping from narrow hanging point to hanging point (that close in after some time, no less) against a scrolling screen, then dodging thruster flames, to be "very little". Again, just you.

The game was meant to be a tribute to the NES games, especially NES Contra. Of course it's going to feel like a rehash, and never did it claim it would be better or 1-up the first Contra. You missed that point, evidently. Also,just because something is "not quite as good" what it is heavily based on, doesn't make it a flop. I don't find it as good as NES Contra, but does that mean its overall quality is ruined? You're acting as if it doesn't have enough fresh material to offer; couldn't be further from the truth.

Speaking of rehashes, what exactly is Contra ReBirth then, which you put above Contra 4?

I called the ICBM section slow, not the game as a whole. There's not much going on in the segment at any given time, and there's a whole lot of waiting for the screen to slowly scroll or the missile to slowly rotate. That's why it's slow.

That's why I said you called SOMETHING in Contra 4 slow. But again, just you. Maybe you have twitch-speed reflexes and have both the timing and coordination to clear that section without problem, but that's not most people. The dangers that could cost players tons of lives in that section are still a major challenge for a lot of players. Whatever you perceive as slow speed for that section, it's balanced out by all the obstacles to overcome. But I digress; that's literally one section in one level out of a total of 9.

And there are 3 NES games.

Context is key. Contra Force doesn't count and sure as hell wasn't a reference point when making this game. It's not even a legitimate Contra game, anyway. Know its development history?

I never said it was one of the worst games in the series. You have invented that idea.
I said it was below the games I listed (which would put it somewhere in the middle (especially if I had actually remembered to mention Super Contra), making it not one of the best).

Hardly an invention when your first post in this thread was to disagree with someone with a tone that obviously reflects your dislike of the game. That, followed by you listing nearly every main Contra title as being above Contra 4. Hell, you're not even counting the PSX titles, so where does that put Contra 4 on your scale on an even smaller list? That literally puts it as one of the low points, quit contradicting yourself.

Good question.

So you agree trying to make a comparison there is fallacious. Glad you cleared that up.

Where? How?

Read the post.

Well... I agree that it's long and requires vigilance and endurance. It's a real struggle, staying awake through it all.

This game wasn't created taking your attention deficits and sleeping disorders into consideration.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by emjeeman:

The exact wording in your question is "How is 4 better than other games in the series?"

I already cleared up the misunderstanding and apologized if it was unclear. What more do you want? Move on, dude.

Yet again, it's just you that finds it boring and not fun to play. There's nothing to be said or done about that when most players of the game think the opposite of you on this.

Tiresome. Do you have anything else other than "that's not the majority opinion" while not pointing to anything that shows people generally love that section, and simultaneously dismissing polls I referred to because majority opinion is biased or whatever?
Really seems like majority opinion only matters when you need it to.

Amazing someone finds having to dodge missiles while jumping from narrow hanging point to hanging point (that close in after some time, no less) against a scrolling screen, then dodging thruster flames, to be "very little". Again, just you.

No, my criticism was that very little is going on AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
The ICBM ride goes through multiple phases focused on different things, sure, but for the most part you're only ever doing one really basic task at a time (usually for about a minute longer than it's interesting).

The game was meant to be a tribute to the NES games, especially NES Contra. Of course it's going to feel like a rehash

"It's uncreative on purpose."
I know. That still hurts the experience.
This is a problem with Contra as a whole, mind you. They're all very eager to reuse to content. Contra 4 is one of the worst about it, though.

and never did it claim it would be better or 1-up the first Contra.

So it's not trying to be better than a game I said it wasn't better than.
I don't see how this is a criticism of what I'm saying.

You missed that point, evidently. Also,just because something is "not quite as good" what it is heavily based on, doesn't make it a flop. I don't find it as good as NES Contra, but does that mean its overall quality is ruined? You're acting as if it doesn't have enough fresh material to offer; couldn't be further from the truth.

I didn't say it was a flop. I said it wasn't one of the best of the series and then listed games I thought were better (most of which the majority of people agree with me on, based on the multiple polls I saw).
To put it into perspective, I'd say it's probably like a 7/10 or so, whereas something like Alien Wars or Hard Corps is a 9/10 or higher.

Speaking of rehashes, what exactly is Contra ReBirth then, which you put above Contra 4?

It's about as bad of a rehash, but it plays better imo, and it's entirely sidescrolling levels with none of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, which is always a good thing.
It's like a 7.5/10 or something, maybe.

That's why I said you called SOMETHING in Contra 4 slow. But again, just you. Maybe you have twitch-speed reflexes and have both the timing and coordination to clear that section without problem, but that's not most people. The dangers that could cost players tons of lives in that section are still a major challenge for a lot of players. Whatever you perceive as slow speed for that section, it's balanced out by all the obstacles to overcome.

You seem to be under the impression that difficult and boring are mutually exclusive.
That's incorrect. I don't know what else to tell you.

But I digress; that's literally one section in one level out of a total of 9

I mention that section in particular because it sounds like it should be a highlight of the game, but it's just sort of okay at best, and I find it emblematic of the entire game to some extent. The whole thing is "Wow, this really seems like it should be more fun and exciting."

Context is key. Contra Force doesn't count and sure as hell wasn't a reference point when making this game. It's not even a legitimate Contra game, anyway. Know its development history?

It is a legitimate Contra game, just like Super Mario Bros. 2 is a legitimate Mario game and Star Fox Adventures is a legitimate Star Fox game.
That's just how it is, whether you like it or not.

Hardly an invention when your first post in this thread was to disagree with someone with a tone that obviously reflects your dislike of the game.

So what you're saying is I didn't say it was one of the worst, and that was a conclusion you came to on you own based on bad assumptions.

That, followed by you listing nearly every main Contra title as being above Contra 4. Hell, you're not even counting the PSX titles, so where does that put Contra 4 on your scale on an even smaller list? That literally puts it as one of the low points, quit contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure what you're confused by or where you're seeing contradictions.
I would place 4 below the games I listed (and Super Contra if I had remembered it).
That means it's above all the games I didn't list, and roughly in the middle for the series for me (or in other words, not one of the best).
I'm not excluding any game in the series.

Read the post.

I did. Nowhere do you explain how Contra 4 is better than any of the games I listed, far as I can tell.

[emjeeman]

Originally posted by Cheese:

Tiresome. Do you have anything else other than "that's not the majority opinion" while not pointing to anything that shows people generally love that section, and simultaneously dismissing polls I referred to because majority opinion is biased or whatever?
Really seems like majority opinion only matters when you need it to.

Tiresome indeed. I have no need to link to countless threads from as far back as over a decade ago (you know, when the game's popularity was at its peak), let alone all the youtube vids reflecting the same. Especially not when a lot of discussion surrounding the game is now lost over the long span of time. So far, though, for the view that it is boring, there's just you. That much is evident as it stands.

No, my criticism was that very little is going on AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
The ICBM ride goes through multiple phases focused on different things, sure, but for the most part you're only ever doing one really basic task at a time (usually for about a minute longer than it's interesting).

Once again, the player is expected to jump from narrow latch to narrow latch, while also doing so against a scrolling screen, then dodge or destroy very small missiles flying towards them while hanging from said narrow latches, then dodge booster flames from the missile with a very small reaction time. Each of those things individually has a small window of error, so is already a challenge for a lot of players. You want more than that to be happening at the same time; so now it's obvious you just have unreasonable expectations.

"It's uncreative on purpose."

Straw man garbage, what a surprise.

This is a problem with Contra as a whole, mind you. They're all very eager to reuse to content. Contra 4 is one of the worst about it, though.

In your opinion, right? Because both professional and reader reviews don't allude to this "Contra 4 is one of the worst about it". Funny though, because by that logic Contra ReBirth should be even more guilty of it. Yet again, however, that's never a criticism I see aimed at it.

So it's not trying to be better than a game I said it wasn't better than.
I don't see how this is a criticism of what I'm saying.

Bringing up NES Contra to compare to Contra 4, and you don't see a problem when taking this into consideration. Fantastic.

I didn't say it was a flop. I said it wasn't one of the best of the series and then listed games I thought were better (most of which the majority of people agree with me on, based on the multiple polls I saw).
To put it into perspective, I'd say it's probably like a 7/10 or so, whereas something like Alien Wars or Hard Corps is a 9/10 or higher.

Your opinion. That's great. Though I do strongly disagree with it being as low as 7 (as do a large number of actual, in-depth reviews, not just random casual polls), I agree that Contra III and Hard Corps are still above it.

It's about as bad of a rehash, but it plays better imo, and it's entirely sidescrolling levels with none of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, which is always a good thing.
It's like a 7.5/10 or something, maybe.

Again, it playing better is just your opinion, same with whatever the hell you find to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with Contra 4. Apart from the rapid fire mechanic of Contra III, HC, etc. it plays very comparably to Contra 4 for what it has. The difference is (and this is not a knock on ReBirth, as I mentioned before, I really enjoy that game) ReBirth is a very short game, it is way too easy and, as a consequence of the first thing, has way too little content.

You seem to be under the impression that difficult and boring are mutually exclusive.
That's incorrect. I don't know what else to tell you.

You're just assuming wrong, is all. They're not mutually exclusive, but the reason people don't find it boring is BECAUSE it's a challenging gauntlet where reflexes and response time are tested. It isn't a sequence whose difficulty is due to it being broken; that's where it would be understandable that people would find it boring. It probably comes as a shock to you, but these kinds of scenarios are actually fun to a lot of players.

I mention that section in particular because it sounds like it should be a highlight of the game, but it's just sort of okay at best, and I find it emblematic of the entire game to some extent. The whole thing is "Wow, this really seems like it should be more fun and exciting."

Sorry that your stance on this game being boring isn't shared by most others.

It is a legitimate Contra game, just like Super Mario Bros. 2 is a legitimate Mario game and Star Fox Adventures is a legitimate Star Fox game.
That's just how it is, whether you like it or not.

Whatever makes you happy.

So what you're saying is I didn't say it was one of the worst, and that was a conclusion you came to on you own based on bad assumptions.

Funny you do the exact thing you accuse others of doing. What's the word there; hypocrisy? What exactly do your posts ranking Contra 4 below most other games in the series paint your opinion of the game as?

I'm not sure what you're confused by or where you're seeing contradictions.
I would place 4 below the games I listed (and Super Contra if I had remembered it).
That means it's above all the games I didn't list, and roughly in the middle for the series for me (or in other words, not one of the best).
I'm not excluding any game in the series.

Contra
Super Contra
Contra III
Contra: Hard Corps
Contra: Shattered Soldier
Contra ReBirth
Hard Corps: Uprising

What didn't you list? Operation C, Neo Contra, Legacy of War and Contra Adventure. Given that being 4 games above the bottom puts it in the middle for you, it's actually much clearer how little value your opinion on Contra 4 actually holds.

I did. Nowhere do you explain how Contra 4 is better than any of the games I listed, far as I can tell.

Learn to read between the lines, as you clearly can't see the answer when it's in the post.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by emjeeman:

Once again, the player is expected to jump from narrow latch to narrow latch, while also doing so against a scrolling screen, then dodge or destroy very small missiles flying towards them while hanging from said narrow latches, then dodge booster flames from the missile with a very small reaction time. Each of those things individually has a small window of error, so is already a challenge for a lot of players. You want more than that to be happening at the same time; so now it's obvious you just have unreasonable expectations.

So my "unreasonable expectation" is for the game to do more than one thing at a time (like the section in Contra III this is a direct reference to managed just fine*) and/or for it not to dwell on one single set piece for too long (like basically every other major Contra game does with its set pieces).
I mean if your standard for "unreasonable" is expecting Contra 4 to be similar to other major Contra games, then hey, whatever.

* Alien Wars throws a 10-15 second miniboss at you followed by a boss where you're juggling jumping from missile to missile roughly once every second, dodging bullets, dodging and shooting down bombs that flood the screen and destroy the missiles, and targeting boss weakpoints, all at once.
Contra 4 never asks even remotely as much from you in its missile segment.

Straw man garbage, what a surprise.

I don't see how it's a straw man. I'm reframing what you said in terms that sound a little more negative, sure, but I don't think I've altered the meaning at all.

"it's going to feel like a rehash (when it's) meant to be a tribute to the NES games."
"it's uncreative on purpose."

Show me where I've changed the meaning in a notable way.

This is a problem with Contra as a whole, mind you. They're all very eager to reuse to content. Contra 4 is one of the worst about it, though.

In your opinion, right? Because both professional and reader reviews don't allude to this "Contra 4 is one of the worst about it". Funny though, because by that logic Contra ReBirth should be even more guilty of it. Yet again, however, that's never a criticism I see aimed at it.

The point isn't whether it's a criticism reviews have mentioned. Who in the world was ever talking about reviews? What are you responding to? What is this supposed to refute?

Obviously all I'm saying there is that Contra 4 rehashes content more than is typical for the series.
Can you agree with that?
I don't think it's a very controversial claim, and just a moment ago you were perfectly happy to say that Contra 4 is meant to be a tribute to the NES games so of course it would feel like a rehash.

Bringing up NES Contra to compare to Contra 4, and you don't see a problem when taking this into consideration. Fantastic.

Literally all I've done from the beginning is compare Contra 4 to other Contra games, including the NES games. Why would it suddenly be a problem to compare them now?
I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I didn't say it was a flop. I said it wasn't one of the best of the series and then listed games I thought were better (most of which the majority of people agree with me on, based on the multiple polls I saw).
To put it into perspective, I'd say it's probably like a 7/10 or so, whereas something like Alien Wars or Hard Corps is a 9/10 or higher.

Your opinion. That's great. Though I do strongly disagree with it being as low as 7 (as do a large number of actual, in-depth reviews, not just random casual polls), I agree that Contra III and Hard Corps are still above it.

I'm not concerned with the particular score or whether reviewers or you disagree with it. That's not the point.
I'm only bringing it up to show that I don't consider Contra 4 to be a flop as you claimed, I merely consider it to be lower than the other titles I mentioned, like I've said from the beginning.

Again, it playing better is just your opinion, same with whatever the hell you find to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with Contra 4.

I thought what I was referring to by "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" was obvious in context, but fair enough, I'll clarify.
"it's entirely sidescrolling levels with none of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥"
By ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I mean the non-sidescrolling levels this series is obsessed with shoving into the games even though most people do not seem to care for them, or at the very least, don't enjoy them near as much as the sidescrolling levels.
ReBirth doesn't have overhead or 3D stages. Contra 4 has three of them. That's a point in ReBirth's favor and one of the reasons I place it above 4.

ReBirth is a very short game, it is way too easy and, as a consequence of the first thing, has way too little content.

I agree with all of this, which is why I place it only a little above 4.

What didn't you list? Operation C, Neo Contra, Legacy of War and Contra Adventure. Given that being 4 games above the bottom puts it in the middle for you, it's actually much clearer how little value your opinion on Contra 4 actually holds.

You're missing Contra Force and two mobile games (there's three mobile games but one is exclusive to China, sooo...).
That's seven games above and seven games below. Sounds like the middle to me.

I guess I lied though, I am excluding pachinko games.

[emjeeman]

Originally posted by Cheese:

So my "unreasonable expectation" is for the game to do more than one thing at a time (like the section in Contra III this is a direct reference to managed just fine*) and/or for it not to dwell on one single set piece for too long (like basically every other major Contra game does with its set pieces).
I mean if your standard for "unreasonable" is expecting Contra 4 to be similar to other major Contra games, then hey, whatever.

Yeah, actually it is. Because, since it's evident you're unaware of what's dead obvious, the risk of dying in each of those "one thing at a time" is already very high. And you want to compare this to Contra III's section, where the missiles the player hangs from in III aren't single grapple points. You should know, the player has the ability to move left and right along the missile quite a distance. In 4, the player needs to precisely jump from point to point, where an overshoot or undershoot equals death. Nice flawed comparison, but yeah, none of this will register with you.

* Alien Wars throws a 10-15 second miniboss at you followed by a boss where you're juggling jumping from missile to missile roughly once every second, dodging bullets, dodging and shooting down bombs that flood the screen and destroy the missiles, and targeting boss weakpoints, all at once.
Contra 4 never asks even remotely as much from you in its missile segment.

See above for why this comparison is invalid. And nice exaggeration, there; jumping from missile to missile roughly once every second? If that really were the case, do you think the boss battle could be finished in time to satisfy your evidently diminutive attention span? Oh, and if you're going to cite a boss battle for a comparison, get the details right. There are no bullets to dodge. In the first phase, you dodge or destroy small missiles flying horizontally and dodge or even shoot out the gun turrets' plasma shots; the second phase, there are no attacks for you to dodge, just jump off the missile you're currently on if the ship's missile is aiming for it.

All this talk of Contra III's comparable segment having bombs flooding the screen, it sounds like you're looking for a touhou-style game and are just upset Contra 4 didn't give that to you.

I don't see how it's a straw man. I'm reframing what you said in terms that sound a little more negative, sure, but I don't think I've altered the meaning at all.

Just what you think, because that's exactly what you did. I said it is a tribute, which inevitably would give vibes of a rehash. You're the one who asserts that by definition equates to being uncreative; that's just based on your own personal criteria. So yeah, you're "reframing" it to what it means according to you, to better suit your narrative.

The point isn't whether it's a criticism reviews have mentioned. Who in the world was ever talking about reviews? What are you responding to? What is this supposed to refute?

Your attention span and mediocre comprehension aren't doing you any favors. You call the reuse of elements to be a problem, naming Contra 4 as one of the worst about it. THAT is what I'm refuting. Because you state this "reuse" problem as a fact, when it's nothing more than your personal opinion.

Obviously all I'm saying there is that Contra 4 rehashes content more than is typical for the series.
Can you agree with that?

Agreed.

I don't think it's a very controversial claim, and just a moment ago you were perfectly happy to say that Contra 4 is meant to be a tribute to the NES games so of course it would feel like a rehash.

Already explained above. I have no issue with saying Contra 4 reuses content, because it does (even though it admittedly presents them in new, different ways). Calling it a problem like that's a fact when hardly anyone echoes that statement, that's where the issue lies.

I thought what I was referring to by "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" was obvious in context, but fair enough, I'll clarify.
"it's entirely sidescrolling levels with none of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥"
By ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I mean the non-sidescrolling levels this series is obsessed with shoving into the games even though most people do not seem to care for them, or at the very least, don't enjoy them near as much as the sidescrolling levels.
ReBirth doesn't have overhead or 3D stages. Contra 4 has three of them. That's a point in ReBirth's favor and one of the reasons I place it above 4.

Even without those 3 3D stages, Contra 4 has more stage content than ReBirth. The 3D stages also some of the easier one in the arcade mode, giving players a chance to possibly gain lives AND gun powerups for whatever follows. But not even factoring that into account, Contra 4 provides much more bonus content, more replayability in the form of the challenge mode and even the 2 (no sorry, 2 of the 3; better?) NES games as part of that bonus content.

It's pretty obvious there are very nitpicking things that you dislike about Contra 4 that somehow ruin the entire experience. Rest assured, though, that's not representative of how most people felt; it's the exception, not the norm.

You're missing Contra Force and two mobile games (there's three mobile games but one is exclusive to China, sooo...).
That's seven games above and seven games below. Sounds like the middle to me.

Oh, such a big deal, I forgot Contra Force. That puts Contra 4 nowhere much closer above. You're going to be disappointed, though, that hardly anyone will agree that the sorry excuses of mobile remakes count as separate games in the Contra series.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Scase is KING of Narwhals:

Churning out nothing but half♥♥♥♥♥♥♥"classic" packs is just a sad state of affairs for such a storied company.

Indeed. What can WE do?

[DeV]

Why the f this thread is full of posts the size of a skyscraper?

[Scase is KING of Narwhals]

Originally posted by DeV:

Originally posted by Scase is KING of Narwhals:

Churning out nothing but half♥♥♥♥♥♥♥"classic" packs is just a sad state of affairs for such a storied company.

Indeed. What can WE do?

Sadly there's nothing we can do. Konami has no interests in making games, just pachinko machines. They use their massively popular franchises and just throw them on said machines, so unlikely they will sell off any IP unfortunately.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by emjeeman:

You call the reuse of elements to be a problem, naming Contra 4 as one of the worst about it. THAT is what I'm refuting. Because you state this "reuse" problem as a fact, when it's nothing more than your personal opinion.
(...)
Already explained above. I have no issue with saying Contra 4 reuses content, because it does (even though it admittedly presents them in new, different ways). Calling it a problem like that's a fact when hardly anyone echoes that statement, that's where the issue lies.

No, I don't think I ever called reusing content an issue of game quality like you seem to be suggesting here.

Even here in my quote that started this:
"the rest of the game isn't even interesting in concept. It's largely just rehashed Contra 1 stuff except not quite as good."
there's a clear distinction between the content being reused, and the content being less good than Contra. I never say or imply that the content is not as good because it's reused.

If anything, you come closer to saying that reusing content means it can't be as good than I ever did:
"you just listed the games that are Contra 4's strong inspirational roots and that Contra 4 wouldn't be without. Why would it be better than those?"

I do say, however, that reused content is less interesting.
Coming up with a new fun idea unlike anything in the series before is inherently more interesting than redoing a fun idea that's been done before with a twist. I don't think there's any getting around that unless it's one hell of a twist.

Anyway, the problem right now seem to be that you're taking "Contra 4 is one of the worst about (reusing content)" as a statement on the quality of Contra 4, when it was only ever a statement about how much Contra 4 reuses content compared with other Contra games.
If "worst" is what's throwing everything off here, then just substitute the statement for all I was intending to say with it: "Contra 4 reuses content more than most other games in the series."

Even without those 3 3D stages, Contra 4 has more stage content than ReBirth. The 3D stages also some of the easier one in the arcade mode, giving players a chance to possibly gain lives AND gun powerups for whatever follows.

Sure, but I just don't like the 3D stages, and I know I'm not at all alone on that.
Alternate gameplay style stages are a mark against any Contra game they're in and make me reconsider replaying them. Like, Contra 4 would be improved in my eyes if the 3D stages were replaced with literally nothing and the game had only 6 stages instead.

Oh, such a big deal, I forgot Contra Force. That puts Contra 4 nowhere much closer above. You're going to be disappointed, though, that hardly anyone will agree that the sorry excuses of mobile remakes count as separate games in the Contra series.

Even if you don't count the mobile games, 8 out of 13 is still much closer to the middle than it is to either end.

But whatever, let's say it's very near the bottom of the list.
Throw out the side games (Hard Corps Uprising, Contra Force), very different gameplay styles (3D games), and phone games.

So Contra 4 is below Contra, Super Contra, Contra III, Contra: Hard Corps, Contra: Shattered Soldier, and Contra ReBirth, and above only Operation C.
Okay. Tell me why that's a problem.
As far as I can tell you seem to agree with me on those first four games, and the only game you've offered any objection to placing above Contra 4 is ReBirth.

Is all of this really just over ReBirth? Would you have looked the other way if I hadn't mentioned it?
What are we arguing about here, really?

[emjeeman]

Originally posted by Cheese:

No, I don't think I ever called reusing content an issue of game quality like you seem to be suggesting here.

Let's see...

"It's uncreative on purpose."
I know. That still hurts the experience.
This is a problem with Contra as a whole, mind you. They're all very eager to reuse to content. Contra 4 is one of the worst about it, though.

Gee, calling the reuse of content to be a problem, it's so baffling how that's not stating an issue with a game's quality. So baffling. /s

Even here in my quote that started this:
"the rest of the game isn't even interesting in concept. It's largely just rehashed Contra 1 stuff except not quite as good."
there's a clear distinction between the content being reused, and the content being less good than Contra. I never say or imply that the content is not as good because it's reused.

Yeah, except that's not even the issue with what you said in that quote. It presents the problem which is the most common theme with everything you use to try to justify Contra 4 not being close to the best, and it's that your views on aspects of the game aren't shared by any significant subset. "Rest of the game isn't interesting", just your view. "Largely just rehashed Contra 1 stuff except not quite as good", again, just your view. Of course, me trying to argue the opposite is also just my view; but the big difference is mine is shared by most people who played the game. The reception to the game and even posts on this discussion board support that pretty clearly.

You dislike all the charm and callbacks Contra 4 present; yet, that's not only hardly ever brought up as an issue by others, but that essentially takes a dig at practically every other Contra game after Super Contra for doing the same. Your complaint is insignificant, it's unrepresentative.

I do say, however, that reused content is less interesting.
Coming up with a new fun idea unlike anything in the series before is inherently more interesting than redoing a fun idea that's been done before with a twist. I don't think there's any getting around that unless it's one hell of a twist.

Fair enough. Yet Contra 4, just like Contra III, Hard Corps and Shattered Soldier, get mostly praised for its callbacks and twists. You dislike it. See the pattern?

Anyway, the problem right now seem to be that you're taking "Contra 4 is one of the worst about (reusing content)" as a statement on the quality of Contra 4, when it was only ever a statement about how much Contra 4 reuses content compared with other Contra games.
If "worst" is what's throwing everything off here, then just substitute the statement for all I was intending to say with it: "Contra 4 reuses content more than most other games in the series."

You started in this thread by disagreeing with someone calling Contra 4 the best, and saying it's not even close. You then rank it close to the bottom of the list in the series of games, justifying remakes counting as separate games, and try to call a placement closer to the bottom as being in the middle. You then bring up Contra 4's tendency to reuse content in a discussion about the game's quality. Do you actually expect people to believe it was not to support your stance on the game's quality?

Sure, but I just don't like the 3D stages, and I know I'm not at all alone on that.
Alternate gameplay style stages are a mark against any Contra game they're in and make me reconsider replaying them. Like, Contra 4 would be improved in my eyes if the 3D stages were replaced with literally nothing and the game had only 6 stages instead.

Fantastic, thanks for sharing your view. Quite a few people dislike the 3D stages; yet I don't see it ruin the game for them.

Even if you don't count the mobile games, 8 out of 13 is still much closer to the middle than it is to either end.

There's nothing that can be done about your inability to interpret basic mathematical statistics, that's all on you. It's literally one spot below midpoint according to your scale, that puts it in the lower half. And therein lies yet another straw man: being closer to the middle and being closer to one of 2 ends aren't mutually exclusive.

But whatever, let's say it's very near the bottom of the list.
Throw out the side games (Hard Corps Uprising, Contra Force), very different gameplay styles (3D games), and phone games.

So Contra 4 is below Contra, Super Contra, Contra III, Contra: Hard Corps, Contra: Shattered Soldier, and Contra ReBirth, and above only Operation C.
Okay. Tell me why that's a problem.

Seriously? You now place the game second to last in this questionably redacted list and you're asking why that's a problem. Wow.

As far as I can tell you seem to agree with me on those first four games, and the only game you've offered any objection to placing above Contra 4 is ReBirth.

I'd put it above ReBirth, yes, for the reasons already specified. But I also think it's above Shattered Soldier and HCU. That's NOT to say those 2 are bad, boring, uninteresting, etc.

Contra Hard Corps is brutal, but it maintains boundaries and keeps certain elements to a minimum, which is why that brutal difficulty is still enjoyable in it. Shattered Soldier is basically Hard Corps, but it pretty much ignores those difficulty boundaries, and amplifies the elements originally kept to a minimum. I like that HC didn't limit the gameplay content and hide bonus/unlockables behind how many lives I lost and specific enemies I missed, which has to be avoided for very long stretches. Memorization can be fun, but when it's done right like in HC and even then, not everyone is big on the whole trial and telegraphy motif. I'm also not big on its limited 3-weapon system, and that is a whole other matter.

Hard Corps Uprising, it's a tough decision. I liked that it took Shattered Soldier's hit rate/performance mechanic and simplified it to nothing more than heuristics. It certainly has a more approachable replay value due to this. It also has a lot more depth to offer in the gameplay. But at the end of the day, when it comes to choosing between HCU and 4, I'd favor the latter. Mainly because 4 is what I have more in mind as far as Contra goes, an arcade run-n-gun with straight-forward mechanics. If I'm feeling more Guilty Gear, I'd go with HCU. But therein lies another issue, how far does one blur the lines for what makes/doesn't make Contra? I once made a big list, a can of worms so to speak, of games that are more or less Contra games if HCU can be accepted as such.

[Major Ahole]

Originally posted by Morbis:

Contra 4 is probably the best in the series.

What a wierd way to spell Contra 3: The Alien Wars