Feedback Focus: Armaments

[failbetterfuzz]

Greetings!

Another feedback focus thread for you, this time on weapons!

What we have now

We currently have 3 classes of weapon in game:

1. The Jerusalem, a fairly high damage single shot weapon that requires some accuracy
   
2. The Emanation, a short range spread weapon
   
3. The Brassraven, a high output, low damage gatling type weapon

• These are intended to cater for a range of play styles and give some options for the two weapon slots.
  
• These weapons operate on individual cooldowns and also accrue heat when used.
  
• When heat goes over a certain threshold (currently set to 60%) there is a chance that one of your weapons will become inoperable until heat dissipates completely.
  
• When heat gets to 100% your are unable to move your locomotive and take damage to your hull until heat starts to drop.

What we've heard

• You'd like clear (and visual) cues as to when the weapons are ready to fire.
  
• There is no indication in the Hold screen (or the descriptions of the weapons themselves) of which weapon is your main weapon and which is your secondary weapon.
  
• The Jerusalem is hard to use because of the difficulty in lining up shots, the difficulty in controlling the locomotive, and the lack of an auto aim. Controlling movement and weapons with the left hand is difficult.

What we're looking to do

• We're experimenting with the role heat and cooldowns play in limiting player damage.
  
• We’re making some changes to the HUD to make heat and Hull distinct and easy to read.
  
• We’ll be trying some variations to the penalties for overheating aimed at making them more immediate and less flow breaking.
  
• Auto-aim: We’re looking at bullets that arc to a greater or lesser extent based on an options screen slider.
  
• We'll be releasing new weapons in the future, including 'large' weapons which can only be slotted to the Large Armament Slots of Parsival and Moloch class locomotives (N.B. you'll only be able to slot large armaments to large slots, but small armaments cam be slotted to both small and large slots)

What we'd like to know

• Do you have a favourite weapon?
  
• Do you have a favourite combination of weapons?
  
• Do you feel that one weapon is clearly superior to the others?
  
• How much does heat gain affect you in combat?
  
• Have you rebound your combat keys? If so, what do you find most comfortable?

[Nanako]

The jerusalem is undoubtedly my favourite weapon in concept, though its power doesn't currently match the difficulty of use. I'm personally against adding autoaim, because i rather like the jerusalem as it is now, requiring a combination of hand-eye coordination and prediction to successfully land a hit. This requires skill.

Rather than making it easier to hit with, i'd encourage making it more rewarding. Not the jerusalem itself, (because it's powerful enough for a free weapon)
but; add an upgraded purchaseable version of it which is functionally similar, but a LOT more powerful per shot, and longer ranged, so that if you do have the skill to land hits with what is essentially a sniper rifle, you're rewarded appropriately for the difficulty of the action. There's a really satisfying feeling when you manage to land a potshot.

For those players who don't want to expend such effort on landing hits, i'd say we should have something similar to the brassraven. But a bit weaker, and much less heat per shot, so you can fire relatively indiscriminately. Or perhaps adjust the brassraven itself

My overarching point with this section is, i believe it's best to add weapons to suit each playstyle, rather than to sacrifice one style in favor of another


Right now, based on current balance figures, the brassraven is, by a very large margin, the most powerful weapon in the game. That's perhaps intended, since it's much more expensive. But currently the brassraven is essentially a rapid fire jerusalem, and any difference in their per-shot power is not significant.

Thats not to say they SHOULD be equivilant in power, since you start with the jerusalem. But as mentioned above, i'd like to see an upgraded version of the jerusalem that is somewhat equivilant (actually, superior) in damage over time

In any case i do feel the brassraven is a bit too powerful for its 500 price tag, and a small reduction in damage wouldnt hurt. And since it is designed like a gatling gun, it would feel more authentic if it actually had fully automatic fire. IE, hold down the button (rather than rapid tapping)

I roll with a brassraven and an emanation, using the latter for opportunistic shots when enemies drift too close, and the former for general combat. It's very easy with this combination, to just sail right up close to another train and turn it to dust before it can react

I've rebound left and right weapons, to the left and right mouse buttons. I find this works far better, especially for reducing the reaction time on firing, which allows me to aim the more precise weapons. I can't imagine going back to keyboard buttons now

Also for steering, i have A/D as left and right strafe, with Q and E for turning. This feels a lot more natural to me than the other way around, and i can perform some pretty nifty manouvres. I'd naturally recommend making these the default keys


I'm a little concerned how this primary/secondary system will affect future trains, since it seems like it causes a hard limit of two weapons per train. Perhaps we could have tertiary and quaternary weapons fired by holding alt before pressing the buttons


Anyways, in summary:
-Add a stronger, longer ranged, and more expensive version of the jerusalem
-Nerf the brassraven slightly
-Add a full auto version of the brassraven, with much lower heat and damage per bullet
-Make mouse buttons the default for firing weapons (i just reported a bug related to this)

[Rusty One Two]

The targeting system from Sunless Sea was good. It included the player's attributes, the environmental conditions (light) affected it, and weapon selection had an important effect.

When I play Sunless Skies, I've typically avoided combat entirely, when I can, because of how strange it feels not only by comparison, but in general. In the spirit of Skies being a successor to Sunless Sea, and a Space Game inheriting the baggage of contemporaries with deep customization, I'd suggest the ability to add targeting through the addition of ship's components and crew abilities.

Perhaps a given Gunnery Officer provides a Gimbal or Tracking targeting effect to a specific class of weapons, such as burst, projectile, etc, which is in turn enhanced or impeded by player and ship attributes and qualities. Perhaps for a given weapon type, a degree of targeting can be had by purchasing a more expensive but otherwise equally performant version.

Suppose you fit Mr Fires Exceptionally Eager Space Torpedo Tubes instead of Iron and Misery Company's Adequate Torpedo Tubes, both fire the same torpedos, the former provides Tracking +1 or so, and The Jittery Needleworking Gunnery Officer gives Torpedo Tracking +2 as well, more after successful personal plot resolution, in addition to other bonuses.

Uhm, not that I'm super sure that there are torpedos at the moment, but you get my point I'm sure.

This way the player who prefers the nimble ship with straight line attacks can keep things as they are, which is always a symptom of early access, some people become disappointed with changes, and in doing so experiences an economy of parts and officers, while players like myself who enjoy micromanaging parts and prefer "Space Targeting Adventure!!" get to do our thing as well. A firm middle ground.

[Nanako]

Originally posted by Rusty One Two:

The targeting system from Sunless Sea was good. It included the player's attributes, the environmental conditions (light) affected it, and weapon selection had an important effect.

Coming from 360 hours of experience with that game, i'd personally disagree with you. The most successful strategy in sunless sea was to plant yourself infront of the enemy, spamming your deck and front guns, along with blue scintillack, and outlast them.

The targeting system made it impossible to dodge, and removed a lot of potential skill from the game. It also artificially limited the selection of weapons, we have a lot more variety now which wouldn't really have been possible with the autoaim based system

Originally posted by Rusty One Two:

I'd suggest the ability to add targeting through the addition of ship's components and crew abilities.

I like this idea, especially if i can opt out of it by picking something different that offers another advantage

[Rusty One Two]

Originally posted by Nanako =^.^=:

Originally posted by Rusty One Two:

The targeting system from Sunless Sea was good. It included the player's attributes, the environmental conditions (light) affected it, and weapon selection had an important effect.

Coming from 360 hours of experience with that game, i'd personally disagree with you. The most successful strategy in sunless sea was to plant yourself infront of the enemy, spamming your deck and front guns, along with blue scintillack, and outlast them.

The targeting system made it impossible to dodge, and removed a lot of potential skill from the game. It also artificially limited the selection of weapons, we have a lot more variety now which wouldn't really have been possible with the autoaim based system.

The only enemy attacks that I never determined how to dodge in Sunless Sea were the area effect attacks, such as the Lorn Fluke and similar Zee Beast abilities. You can change heading when the enemy fires and their shot will miss, and the Anarchist faction stealth item helps delay enemy targeting.

We all had hopefully slightly different experiences with Sunless Sea, it's interesting to see that you played the game that much and used such a different strategy than I did. I typically would push the enemy in the side if they had rear guns, if they lacked them I would follow them and line up when the targeting resolution was ready. Varying speed and heading, out maneuvering an enemy is how you sink a dreadnaught with a steam pinnace. Or not, as a long lineage of drowned captains will attest.

[därSeebär]

I really like the system in Sunless Skies: It makes battle a difficult and dangerous adventure. I would like to see a more broad approach on weapons (that will surely come when the game advances), not only in terms of pure strenght but also in terms of difficulty. i.e. a really strong Jerusalem-style gun that is difficult to aim but rewards with damage, contrasted with basically "self-aiming" torpedos (or steam-driven rockets?)

Heat is a nice balancing tool, becaus it really affects combat. It basically sets a time-limit, because you can only dodge and shoot for so long. So either you get your enemy down within the heat-limit, or your best bet is to call it a day. Or you decide to gain a significant amount of terror while driving circles and cooling down.

Key layout is fine when you add the UI to determine which weapon was which button.

[Lolpingu]

Honestly I really dislike the idea of limiting weapon mounts to fixed-only. On top of denying us the ability to capitain locomotive space dreadnoughts by not implementing turret mechanics (how dare you, Failbetter!), it also makes the combat overly simplified IMO. Combat boils down to one of two things: either you dash out of the way of an enemy locomotive's projectile, or you backpedal while peppering a creature that tries to attack you in melee.

With turreted weapons, particularly many of them mounted on broadsides, it would make for more interesting and tactical combat as it would require more careful maneuvering to avoid fire while keeping your guns pointed at an enemy ship.

Lastly, for no particular reason, I shall say this again: locomotive space dreadnoughts.

[TherionChilde]

As far as weapon favorites, thus far, the emanation is by far my favorite, but I have always tended to be a bit of a shotgun player. Throttling the engines in full reverse, the Jeruselem becomes a powerhouse against pursuers that don't adjust their trajectory for incoming fire, (all) and combining that with the strafe function allows for almost constant damage output while avoiding as much incoming damage as enemies can put out. Srafe-to-emanation broadsiding is also a blast. I like that the main difficulty in combat comes less from a gap in firepower / damage soak, and more from a grasp of tactical options available. Adding more "emergency maneuvers" to the complement of the locomotive's abilities could easily do just as much, if not more, to improve combat effectiveness as adding tiered combat equipment.

Heat has really only come into play during group combat, which has become more of a factor in the latest update. I tend to overheat when facing herds of Cantankeri, or multiple swarms of bees, but 1 on 1, it's impact is negligible unless I am missing a lot of Jeruselem shots.

As far as keybindings, I'm a south paw, and remap all controls to the number pad-- movement on the middle 3 fingers, (1-9) primary / secondary specials on thumb and pinky. (0 and 'enter') Kinda my go-to for kb/mouse games.

[watchdog79]

I would like to offer an idea for perhaps a radical change:

Leave the fixed single shot guns to be mounted in the forward slot and change the other slot to represent broadside batteries, firing less powerful volley shots. This would allow a greater variety of combat styles than my current reverse and keep my prow pointed at the enemy. It would also greatly add to the feeling of controlling a battleship.

I would then suggest to change the controls as follows:

Forward gun - spacebar
port broadside battery - left mouse button
starboard broadside battery - right mouse button

[Nanako]

i'd really love to see omnidirectional turrets.

I already fire with the mouse buttons anyways, highly recommended btw. It wouldn't be too hard to have some guns that point and fire specifically at the mouse cursor

[txh0881]

I would like to suggest using Left and Right Mouse buttons to shoot the two weapons, with a button, such as Space Bar or Middle Mouse activating/deactivating combat mode.

[Null Winter]

I am quite happy to see that combat now requires a degree of aiming, rather than the automated system in Sunless Seas that simply required you to keep your vision cone on your enemy while you sat in their blindspot or out of their range.

With that said, I still feel as if the exact same tactics work. Enemies that primarily rely on ramming can be sniped far too easily, because they don't seem to realize that they need to get closer to you until you've already plinked out half of their health with the Jerusalem or Brassraven. Enemy ships still have easily exploited blindspots; it is hilariously simple to approach a ship from the back or side and point-blank it with the Emanation. While this tactic of getting into a blindspot is a smart one that would be utilized even in actual naval combat, it just feels too easy to do thanks to how enemies move and react (or more often, don't react) to your movements. If enemy ships actively worked to keep out of your gunsights and monsters chased more aggresively, then the player would need to work harder to maneuver into advantageous positions. Alternatively, if you do not feel like you can adjust the AI behavior satisfactorily, then enemy anatomy or structure could change to discourage these tactics; more expensive enemy vessels (and perhaps your own?) could begin to mount ramming spikes or miniature flak cannons on their sides to discourage easy shotgun raids, or they could have more heavily armored flanks to reduce damage from flanking shots. Likewise, more dangerous monsters, beasties, and unholy abominations from the deepest reaches of our nightmares made material could possess appendages to attack at any angle and at more range. I recall in Sunless Seas that very few enemies possessed both a ram and a ranged attack, and those were often only the highest tier creatures.

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I like the initial variety of weapons I see, but I do feel that more options should be added. As it is, all weapons seem to be forward mounted and fixed aim. Your three factors are "How hard does it hit, how far away can it hit something, and how often can it try to hit something?". I'd like to see a return of directional weapons or weapons with adjustable aim.

I'd also like some more tactical options and weapons with noticeable effects outside of pure damage. Perhaps a trader would be fond of magnetic mines that deploy from behind and discourage chasing from AI pirates by slowing them down? More aggressive players may be fond of a repurposed Bronzewood rotary lumbersaw that is now meant to interrupt a ramming monster and grind it into stardust at the cost of higher fuel consumption and heat generation. Evasive fighters may want side-mounted "vake wing" blades that deploy when moving at high speed to slice through enemies that the crazed pilot just narrowly misses ramming into. Cruel pirate players may love a close-range blunderbuss that flings flaming shrapnel into enemies and pushes them far away to burn for extra damage at a distance. The truly mad might employ a Tesla barrier to deal constant area damage in a tiny ring around their locomotive, at the risk of shocking themselves.

Personally, I like to get up close and personal after dodging the enemy's fire to deal heavy damage and defeat opponents in one glorious burst, so shotguns or blunderbusses and potential melee/ramming weapons would likely be my favorites.


I know you folks are creative enough to come up with things other than the standard rifle, shotgun, and machinegun triad.

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Heat build-up doesn't seem like much of an issue, but I primarily use the slower firing weapons that allow heat to dissipate during their long shot delays. Combined with most of the current enemies not being particularly durable, this means that you don't need to dodge much and so don't build up much heat from your lateral thrusts or repeated shots, either.

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As for keybindings, I changed my primary weapon to right-mouse-click and my secondary to middle-mouse. I wanted to do left and right, but left needs to be used for story interactions and navigating menus, so I set it up to avoid any unintended discharges. Additionally, if properly aimable weapons are introduced, then I'd rather shoot with the same device that aims.

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All that follows are miscellaneous combat gripes that may not be on-topic at all:

One thing I never got in Sunless Seas was a satisfying battle with a truly massive enemy. Yes, I know Mt. Nomad, the Constant Companion, the Moth, etc. are big within the setting, but on my screen they didn't really outclass my ship by much, especially if I had grinded for two real life years to upgrade to something beefier. There was never a moment where a leviathan rose from the depths to make visible waves in the dark waters; something so big that you had to fight its outer appendages before you could sail closer to actually get its main body onto the screen. Nor was there ever a legendary ship of unimaginable size covered in all sorts of unfriendly gunnery stations. A giant entity was something that I felt was hidden somewhere within the game, but it simply wasn't; I hope that we can see at least a couple of semi-rare enemies and bosses within Sunless Skies that, well, fill the skies and have to be taken down piece by piece.

It would be nice if the scout would tell us the general location of nearby enemies, common spawn points of enemies, or randomly generated "herds" passing through areas for players actively seeking a fight.

[This army kills fascists]

The dodging + Heat is an absolute game changer for me and I love it. It brings much more skill in the game, the heat punishment is just perfectly thought out, so you can't just spam Q and E to evade.

I've recently started playing around Brassraven + Jerusalem, I like that I can spam the Brassraven in order to do alot of damage in a short time.

I feel the balancing on the Jerusalem vs Brassraven is quite important, I feel like the Brassraven is a little underpowered at the moment, but that might also just be my skill. Looking at DPS compared to heat.

If I would look at a weapons to add I would look at 2 things, firstly upgrades of the existing weapons offcourse, obtainable through quests preferably. And maybe a charged laster type weapon, where the need of maintaining aim over a charging time becomes even more important.

[failbetterfuzz]

Thanks for everyone's feedback on this. There are some great ideas here and it's lovely to see everyone not only getting involved but actually showing love for quite a few features in game. Of course the whole point of gathering feedback is to find out what's not quite working for people, but also what is working. So this it's fab to know what you also enjoy in the game as it stands at the moment.


I'm going to let this thread drop now since we're currently working on some combat tweaks which should be released in our February update. I don't believe this will include new weapons just yet, but more the mechanics of combat and movement. Some of you will also be happy to know that while it's not a proper targeting reticle, January's update will see the release of headlights on locomotives and these go a some way to helping with targeting in combat. There may be further tweaks after a second round of feedback gathering, but we'll look at getting more feedback from you guys once these updates is out.