Ordering Course and Depth

[Darkstar]

This was asked repeatedly in Neal's thread but I'm asking here in order to bring it to the Devs' attention more easily.

Are we stuck steering the boat around with WASD, as in SSN, or can we give depth/course orders as we could in RSR? I guess I just assumed that we would be able to, since that was an option in RSR, but it's not clear from Neal's video, which is currently the only footage of gameplay available. Even in SSN, I seem to remember there at least being hotkeys to go to PD and to surface the boat, but I could be wrong as I haven't played it in a very long time.

Edit: I went through the entire manual and found no reference to a way to give course/depth orders. This can't be right, can it? Having to be the planesman and the Chief of the Watch while also making the important tactical decisions as the skipper in a game that's seemingly much more realistic than SSN, which was very arcady, sounds like a pain the neck to say the least. Not to mention the touchiness of achieving precise depths and courses without broaching the surface, as it seems Neal accidentally does in his video...

[Killerfish Games]

You cannot order specific depth or course, all controls are done through WASD.

We found that ordering depth and course was just too "hands off" and we didn't like the impact on the interface of having to have text boxes for inputs. It is purely a design decision as we found direct steering much more engaging, hectic in combat and keeps you watching the action rather then looking at the interface/text boxes.

[Darkstar]

I'm very surprised at that design decision. I'll have to hold off on judging it too harshly until I get to play the game, of course, but I never felt "hands off" in RSR, even just manually typing courses and depths in to give those orders...

[u2336]

Having now a concrete and reliable element to judge, I must say that I 100% agree with Darkstar's opinion about the difficulty to play all the roles (helmsman, planesman, tactician, skipper...).
Maybe it would have been a good idea to let the player choose between two options, WASD or orders. Knowing a little bit about real subs, the role of helmsman and planesman was quite demanding and we can see it seems to be the case in CW as Neal got the greatest difficulties to correctly achieve a PD.
I'll see what to think about this when I test CW myself.

[Killerfish Games]

RSR lacks the 3D aspect, which we found to be a huge factor, and Cold Waters kind of plays like a slow-paced flight sim with regard to controls/steering. This is something just not possible with RSR's 2D representation.

But you're right, give it a go and if it turns out to be a feature sub skippers simply can't live without we'll certainly consider adding it.

[u2336]

Open-minded devs, I like that ! 👍

[Darkstar]

Well it simply shouldn't be possible to accidentally surface a nuclear submarine as it seems Neal did. Ever. So, hopefully he just has butterfingers or something!

If I can smoothly get the boat to PD (which will be very important during the 60's campaign with straight running torpedoes, I imagine), I'll be (mostly) happy. If doing so leads to a lot of accidental broaching... I will not be, to say the least.

I appreciate the devs being willing to add the feature if it's in high enough demand :)

[Antti-san]

Personally, I think I won't mind the WASD - it's just like the 5 degree rudder control in Red Storm Rising.

BTW, I noticed in the manual you can adjust the rudder to 30 degrees, versus 15 in RSR. How big a turn is required in Cold Waters to create the knuckle?

[Killerfish Games]

If you're impatient and set planes to 30 at shallow depth while at speed, sure you'll risk broaching the sail. But with some practice and patience, it is very easy to reliably get to periscope depth.

Neal has the planes at 15 and doing 20 knots as he approaches the surface, so yeah he's going to broach. But he's also just got the game, recording footage and showcasing it while narrating, so he's a little distracted and still getting as feel for the controls.

Knuckle: get to 25 kn or above, put the rudder hard over, put it hard over in the other direction and you will likely generate a knuckle.

[shennong]

Posted this in the other thread, but may as well chime in here as well:

"This doesn't make a lot of sense to me- of course you should offer direct rudder/planes control, and experience with RSR shows the player is going to be using those all the time in evasive maneuvering (no one used the numeric course input controls to dodge torpedoes). But for routine stuff like "come to periscope depth" or "make course 090"- why? I have to leave the tactical map to eyeball a depth change or course in the 3d world? That doesn't seem "engaging" at all, more like "annoying" or "distracting"- and with no save system and no instrumentation giving rates of climb/descent etc, it's guaranteed to result in frustrating BS like the OP's video."

Don't intend to buy this until this feature is in tbh. Forcing manual controls for every maneuver is silly.

[Darkstar]

Originally posted by shennong:

Posted this in the other thread, but may as well chime in here as well:

"This doesn't make a lot of sense to me- of course you should offer direct rudder/planes control, and experience with RSR shows the player is going to be using those all the time in evasive maneuvering (no one used the course input controls to dodge torpedoes). But for routine stuff like "come to periscope depth" or "make course 090"- why? I have to leave the tactical map to eyeball a depth change or course in the 3d world? That doesn't seem "engaging" at all, more like "annoying" or "distracting"- and with no save system and no instrumentation giving rates of climb/descent etc, it's guaranteed to result in frustrating BS like the OP's video."

Don't intend to buy this until this feature is in tbh. Forcing manual controls for every maneuver is silly.

Although I still intend to buy the title, I agree that manual control only is silly. I never use manual control of the rudder/planes/ballast in RSR. Ever. And I have no problem whatsoever dodging torpedoes.

[Sunshine]

Ugh, also very turned off by all-manual control. It only adds arcade-feeling and takes away "I am in command!" feeling.

There's nothing better than how DW handles it in my opinion. Please consider this approach later.

[shennong]

Originally posted by Darkstar:

Although I still intend to buy the title, I agree that manual control only is silly. I never use manual control of the rudder/planes/ballast in RSR. Ever. And I have no problem whatsoever dodging torpedoes.

OK, so one guy used the numeric course input control to dodge torpedoes. Anyway, it would be good to use the week's delay to add numeric course/depth input controls.

[Darkstar]

Originally posted by shennong:

Originally posted by Darkstar:

Although I still intend to buy the title, I agree that manual control only is silly. I never use manual control of the rudder/planes/ballast in RSR. Ever. And I have no problem whatsoever dodging torpedoes.

OK, so one guy used the numeric course input control to dodge torpedoes. Anyway, it would be good to use the week's delay to add numeric course/depth input controls.

I wasn't suggesting that they shouldn't put the feature in, at all. My point was that even with purely numeric controls RSR, and therefore CW, would be perfectly playable in my opinion. Manual control only turns the submarine into an undersea fighter plane, a la SSN.

[Antti-san]

I don't think you can perform the knuckle without the manual rudder control in Red Storm Rising, though. But I suppose that's a bit OT. ;)

[Surveyor]

Well, if you are not happy with WASD, you should also protest the visuals. How would you expect to see so much underwater, not to mention the 3rd "person" perspective?

In my opinion, if you are allowed to have that kind of viewpoint in a sub sim, WASD only makes sense. I personally would prefer an option to switch between WASD+visuals/commands+periscope only modes, provided this is really a hardcore enough sim.