Well Team Fortress 2ians...

[Apple Zoo]

Question for you!!!

Do you think the pyro is overpowered? I do.

[Trans Catgirl Lenin]

wat

[zeph]

no

[Hunter]

no, soldier

[Ribbon]

Short range, meh damage output at said range, and its only real option for long range is a projectile that can be easily avoided?

[dedrieglijk]

pyro is for beginners same for heavy
but soldier is the best along side scout and demo

[Zort]

no, his lack of range and low damage output make him kinda weak without close ranger, and classes have weapons against him, they only thing i consider op is the phlog and to a smaller extent the degreaser

[Chairforce]

Short: No.

Long:

Pyro has the shortest combat range of all classes.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231294817
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231294952

• The Pyro's effective range doesn't go beyond the range of the airblast's hitbox, his maximum combat presence is limited to his Shotgun's reach.
  
• The Flaregun is arguably not exactly extending that reach in comparison to the Shotgun, as it fires easy-to-dodge arcing projectiles without splash range that even a Heavy can sidestep past close range, carrying only 30 base damage and with an attack intervall of 2 seconds http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Flaregun#Damage_and_function_times. True, it crits burning targets, however that would mean that said target either is [or very recently was] in flame range, pretty much nullifying the entire 'long range' argument or the target being as predictable [or static] in their movement to get hit by a flare twice in a row.

The Pyro has the second least mobility of all classes.

True, 100% walkspeed doesn't sound too bad on-paper, but Sniper-mobility without Sniper-range to boot is sub-par.
Engineer-mobility without Engineer-staying-power to boot is sub-par.
And Spy-mobility without Spy-stealth-tools at hand or Spy-like rewards for an ambush (i.e. the victim's instant death) is sub-par.

• By default, the Pyro has no means of advanced mobility. He is the only offensive class to be restricted to running.
  
• By default, there aren't but three classes that don't run at least as fast as the Pyro http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Classes#Class_speed_comparison:
  • The Soldier, who mobility-wise more than makes up for his sub-par movespeed with rocketjumps.
    
  • The Demoman, who still features 93% of the Pyro's runspeed, and stickyjumps or shield-charges [as well as pipe jumps].
    
  • The Heavy, who in a direct combat situation basically is the Pyro's counter. His stock primary is capable of killing a Pyro faster than a Pyro could kill a Heavy via Degreastinguishing, even if you factor in full spinup. [Exception: Natascha-wielders]
• Any unlocks granting the Pyro extra mobility are sacrificing some of the impact he can have once he is within range
  • The Detonator, whilst granting mini-rocketjumps, only packs a burst damage of 41 [on a burning target, that is]; that's not even half of what the Shotgun or the Flaregun are capable of, not even speaking of the self-damage taken in the processus.
  • Running the Powerjack boosts your out-of-combat mobility, but at the same time prevents you from carrying combat-wise superior choices like the Backscratcher or the Axtinguisher, not to mention the vulnerability.

The Pyro has the second least primary damage output in the game

Only Medic primaries are strictly worse at killing something in a direct fight. One could argue about the Sniper Rifle, but yeah, that's neither exactly a direct-combat-weapon, nor is assuming that the Flamethrower killed stuff faster than a Sniperrifle anywhere close to what is the case in practice.

• The Flamethrower optimally does 153,5 damage/sec http://wiki.teamfotress.com/wiki/Pyro#Primary[4]. For comparison, the default Shotgun put in the exact same situation does 180 damage in less than 1 second, counting the initial burst [Sidenote: If we're not factoring that first shot in and go by damage divided per attack intervall, the Flamethrower admittedly is superior to the shotgun, but yeah, that's a purely arbitrary number, and even going by that, the difference in favor of the Flamethrower measures less then 10 damage/sec] [5].
  
• The Flamethrower does its damage in stream form, hence it has practically no burst damage at all. While, say, the Spy's Revolver does 60 instant damage at point blank the Flamethrower needs ~0,4 seconds to do the same [6] .
  
• The only primary slot weapon in the game that does not outdamage the Flamethrower is the Syringegun [and one could argue about the Sniper-rifle].
  • Side-note: The Flamethrower is also one of the very few weapons that doesn't benefit from damage ramp-up. Additionally, crits and minicrits done by flamethrowers are the only ones in the game to be subject to negative modification by damage fall-off [7].

Afterburn isn't but a nuisance.

Left alone the damage-output isn't all that impressive, it's almost easier to counter than to apply.

• 6 damage per sec [4 with the Degreaser], for 10 seconds max. Even under the best possible circumstances that's less damage total than 1 non-critical melee swing does [8][9].
  
• Additionally afterburn is completely nullified by contact with
  • Medikits
    
  • Water
    
  • Dispensers
    
  • Medics
    
  • Airblasts of an allied Pyro
    
  • Allied Manmelters
    
  • Allied Jarate-Snipers
    
  • Allied Mad Milk-Scouts
    
  • Thrown Sandviches
    
  • Thrown Steaks
    
  • Passive resistances and stuff that can be used on-self [Targe, Bonk, Spycicle..] [10].
• Beyond its arguably negligible damage, afterburn has notable negative effects on 2 classes, namely the Spy, as the visual effect gives away his position, and the Sniper, since the damage makes him flinch. However, both of which have widely used unlocks to douse fire - Jarate and the Deadringer, to be precise, but there's also less commonly used stuff that counteracts afterburn, like the Cozy Camper/Spy-Cicle.

TL;DR:
Least ranged class in the game,
second least mobile class in the game,
featuring the least burst-damage primary weapon,
that also has the least primary damage-per-time-output in the game save syringes,
and while unlocks might patch up either of these aspects,
even their competences don't allow the Pyro to surpass other combat classes' in the area that they buff,
while they are simultanously gimping the Pyro's already meager elsewhere capabilities.
Objectively and factually so.
http://Why the Pyro isn't OP ver.2.5; 03.14
http://Written and directed by 2© Sentry Fox

[Spude]

One of these again? At least try to make original discussions damnit!

[engineer gaming]

Why not say ALL the classes are OP, which brings us to the conclusion that NONE of them are, and go home sober.

[Satsujin Jiken]

Not OP per se, just scales badly with low skill floor and ceiling.

[Spades]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 20 Sentry Fox:

Short: No.

Long:

Pyro has the shortest combat range of all classes.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231294817
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231294952

• The Pyro's effective range doesn't go beyond the range of the airblast's hitbox, his maximum combat presence is limited to his Shotgun's reach.
  
• The Flaregun is arguably not exactly extending that reach in comparison to the Shotgun, as it fires easy-to-dodge arcing projectiles without splash range that even a Heavy can sidestep past close range, carrying only 30 base damage and with an attack intervall of 2 seconds http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Flaregun#Damage_and_function_times. True, it crits burning targets, however that would mean that said target either is [or very recently was] in flame range, pretty much nullifying the entire 'long range' argument or the target being as predictable [or static] in their movement to get hit by a flare twice in a row.

The Pyro has the second least mobility of all classes.

True, 100% walkspeed doesn't sound too bad on-paper, but Sniper-mobility without Sniper-range to boot is sub-par.
Engineer-mobility without Engineer-staying-power to boot is sub-par.
And Spy-mobility without Spy-stealth-tools at hand or Spy-like rewards for an ambush (i.e. the victim's instant death) is sub-par.

• By default, the Pyro has no means of advanced mobility. He is the only offensive class to be restricted to running.
  
• By default, there aren't but three classes that don't run at least as fast as the Pyro http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Classes#Class_speed_comparison:
  • The Soldier, who mobility-wise more than makes up for his sub-par movespeed with rocketjumps.
    
  • The Demoman, who still features 93% of the Pyro's runspeed, and stickyjumps or shield-charges [as well as pipe jumps].
    
  • The Heavy, who in a direct combat situation basically is the Pyro's counter. His stock primary is capable of killing a Pyro faster than a Pyro could kill a Heavy via Degreastinguishing, even if you factor in full spinup. [Exception: Natascha-wielders]
    
  • Any unlocks granting the Pyro extra mobility are sacrificing some of the impact he can have once he is within range
    • The Detonator, whilst granting mini-rocketjumps, only packs a burst damage of 41; that's not even half of what the Shotgun or the Flaregun are capable of,not even speaking of the self-damage taken in the processus.
    • Running the Powerjack boosts your out-of-combat mobility, but at the same time prevents you from carrying combat-wise superior choices like the Backscratcher or the Axtinguisher, not to mention the vulnerability.

The Pyro has the second least primary damage output in the game

Only Medic primaries are strictly worse at killing something in a direct fight. One could argue about the Sniper Rifle, but yeah, that's neither exactly a direct-combat-weapon, nor is assuming that the Flamethrower killed stuff faster than a Sniperrifle in anywhere close to what is the case in practice.

• The Flamethrower optimally does 153,5 damage/sec http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Pyro#Primary[4]. For comparison, the default Shotgun put in the exact same situation does 180 damage in less than 1 second, counting the initial burst [Sidenote: If we're not factoring that first shot in and go by damage divided per attack intervall, the Flamethrower admittedly is superior to the shotgun, but yeah, that's a purely arbitrary number, and even going by that, the difference in favor of the Flamethrower measures less then 10 damage/sec] [5].
  
• The Flamethrower does its damage in stream form, hence it has practically no burst damage at all. While, say, the Spy's Revolver does 60 instant damage at point blank the Flamethrower needs ~0,4 seconds to do the same [6] .
  
• The only primary slot weapon in the game that does not outdamage the Flamethrower is the Syringegun [and one could argue about the Sniper-rifle].
  • Side-note: The Flamethrower is also one of the very few weapons that doesn't benefit from damage ramp-up. Additionally, crits and minicrits done by flamethrowers are the only ones in the game to be subject to negative modification by damage fall-off [7].

Afterburn isn't but a nuisance.

Left alone the damage-output isn't all that impressive, it's almost easier to counter than to apply.

• 6 damage per sec [4 with the Degreaser], for 10 seconds max. Even under the best possible circumstances that's less damage total than 1 non-critical melee swing does [8][9].
  
• Additionally afterburn is completely nullified by contact with
  • Medikits
    
  • Water
    
  • Dispensers
    
  • Medics
    
  • Airblasts of an allied Pyro
    
  • Allied Manmelters
    
  • Allied Jarate-Snipers
    
  • Allied Mad Milk-Scouts
    
  • Thrown Sandviches
    
  • Thrown Steaks
    
  • Passive resistances and stuff that can be used on-self [Targe, Bonk, Spycicle..] [10].
• Beyond its arguably negligible damage, afterburn has notable negative effects on 2 classes, namely the Spy, as the visual effect gives away his position, and the Sniper, since the damage makes him flinch. However, both of which have widely used unlocks to douse fire - Jarate and the Deadringer, to be precise, but there's also less commonly used stuff that counteracts afterburn, like the Cozy Camper/Spy-Cicle.

TL;DR:
Least ranged class in the game,
second least mobile class in the game,
featuring the least burst-damage primary weapon,
that also has the second least primary damage-per-time-output in the game save syringes,
and while unlocks might patch up either of these aspects,
even their competences don't allow the Pyro to surpass other combat classes' in the area that they buff,
while they are simultanously gimping the Pyro's already meager elsewhere capabilities.
Objectively and factually so.
http://Why the Pyro isn't OP ver.2.5; 02.14
http://Written and directed by 2© Sentry Fox

Yeah but with his airblast he counters at least 2 classes, leaving Demo with his melee, and Pyro can also counter a Spy, be he using Spy-cicle, Dead Ringer or both (just follow the extinguishing sound), so, I don't think he's OP nor UP.

[lethal amount of parmesan cheese]

Yup, but I still think pyro's fun to play :3

[Maple]

Gotta love how many scrubs think pyro is overpowered.

[sunthespot]

It's like one new pyro-op-hate thread every second day. Common give some credit to spies, snipers or say.. scouts.

[ShugoTheRipper]

[Snip, Poof, Gone]