Nerf idea for Axtinguisher

[Sherry]

I've seen plenty of people complain about the nerf,so here is how I would picture it nerfed with regular crits:

• A bit slower draw speed (to balance it with the Degreaser)
  
• Slower swing rate

[Amble]

I don't think the slower draw speed is necessary, but slower swing rate would be a much better nerf then what Valve did. +1

[Sherry]

Цитата допису Radiant Malevolence:

I don't think the slower draw speed is necessary, but slower swing rate would be a much better nerf then what Valve did. +1

Most Pyros prefer to use the Axtinguisher with the Degreaser,in my opinion it is necessary.

[Froodle]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Цитата допису Radiant Malevolence:

I don't think the slower draw speed is necessary, but slower swing rate would be a much better nerf then what Valve did. +1

Most Pyros prefer to use the Axtinguisher with the Degreaser,in my opinion it is necessary.

I agree.

I rarely see Pyros use the Ax without the Degreaser.

[Chairforce]

The Axtinguisher never was but the tip of the iceberg, though.
The Pyro as a class has deeper-going problems; in my opinion, if you want to fix the Axtinguisher, you have to start at the rock bottom and rework the Pyro's baseline.
Here's a chunk from a rebalancing thread I'm working on:

Pyro

Baseline Changes:

• Undid the Airblast changes from the Mecha Update

For those who don't know, this is what that update changed, and what I'd like to see undone:
• Added a vertical angle-cap to airblasts; pushforce is since unconditionally applied from below the target.
  
• Added a turnability-stun, disabling airstrafing on airblasted targets.

This change is what remains the main reason for people to complain about the Airblast ever since. Before it, the Pyro had to actually aim upwards to blast people upwards - now any airblasted target recieves an upward bump even if the Pyro is standing on their head and airblasting straight down.
Also, have you ever wondered why you can't surf out of airblasts like it is the case for every other source of knockback? The reason is the stun mechanic added in the very same update - nobody knows why they did that, considering noone out there ever complained about airblasts being too reactive of a feature prior to that tweak. My guess is that they didn't deem it fair to only take control away from the Pyro's side, so they also removed the recieving end's performance from the equation for good measure :V

• All Flamethrowers:
[+] Fire dries liquid-based status-effects on allies.
[+] 20% increased base-damage.
[-] 30% increased damage fall-off.

You can now hit up to 20% increased damage up close, allowing the Flamethrower match about a Shotgun's damage/sec output at contact range, if you are accurate enough. On the other hand, damage per particle decays 30% faster, meaning that the further half of the cone carries about the same damage as before the Pyromania buff - good positioning is everything.

• 7% increased base-movespeed.

The logical consequence - or rather the requirement - of making the damage output more reliant on good positioning is enabling good positioning.
Why needed? Well, as it stands, the Pyro despite his limited range is unable to catch up with any class save the ones that have access to blast-jumps [for as long as they aren't blast-jumping, that is] and.. well.. the Heavy. Most importantly though this buff would put the Pyro's movespeed on the a level that's actually allowing him to keep up with the Medic, the most important class for him to protect.

• Afterburn:
[+] Afterburn is no longer doused by small and medium health-packs.
[-] Afterburn is only applied by hits dealing at least 4 damage.

At this point, the only class without at least one means of shedding off fire is the Soldier - and that's not considering how the Conch's regen and Black Box' health-gain migitate the burn damage. Afterburn currently is easier to counter than it is to apply - and that says a lot. Making it require a bit more of teamwork or loadout setup to migitate doesn't seem all that unjustified, given its overall low damage total.
On the other end, since damage per particle now decays faster, the Pyro actually has to be up close to apply afterburn to begin with [doubly noticable with the Degreaser or the Phlogistinator, since they hit the damage threshold a bit later]; mindlessly sprayed particles not only deal less direct damage now, they also won't set targets on fire anymore - In order to actually set people alight, you now have to exploit your newly found movement edge.

We also already kind of had an impression of how something like this would look like: The Gas Jockey's Gear set originally granted the Pyro extra movespeed as a passive bonus [and unlike what I suggest here the bonus shipped with the Degreaser, Powerjack, and a secondary of your choice] And despite this set being quite popular and widely used, it didn't cause complaints from Spies or Medics back then. In regard of these baseline tweaks being the same as the set's original perks in terms of average primary damage-output, all the while shipping with a comperatively less of a movespeed boost, and harder-to-apply afterburn, I don't see much potential for problems here.

Unlock Changes:

• Degreaser
[-] Added "7% movespeed penalty".

To accord to the baseline changes.
Equipping the Degreaser will leave your run-speed unaffected by the baseline-buff. Combos remain perfectly possible, for as long as you are up close enough, but things like a Flarepunch can no longer be initiated by a single puff of fire at the edge of your range.

• Powerjack
[~] Upside reworded to "Run at 115% speed while active".

To accord to the baseline changes.
This way, its bonus doesn't stack with the newly added speed buff.

• Axtinguisher
[+] Reverted the "Only minicrits from the front" nerf.

To accord to the baseline changes.
Pre-nerf Axtinguisher neither evoked any complaints until the Degreaser shipped, nor has it seen any notable use without it since - any attempted changes to how the combo performs should as such be carried out by addressing the synergy between these two, rather than flat out nerfing either.
Which is exactly what restricting the baseline-changes do: Getting lit by a stray particle, then immobilized by an Airblast, then finished off by an Axtinguisher is no longer a thing simply because stray particles are now next to harmless, and Airblasts are no longer immobilizing you - it's removing exactly the aspect that annoyed people about combos, while keeping their full potential for those who use it well.
As such, the current nerf trying to adress exactly this is no longer needed.

[Sherry]

Цитата допису 2↓st Sentry Gentleman:

The Axtinguisher never was but the tip of the iceberg, though.
The Pyro as a class has deeper-going problems; in my opinion, if you want to fix the Axtinguisher, you have to start at the rock bottom and rework the Pyro's baseline.
Here's a chunk from a rebalancing thread I'm working on:

Pyro

Baseline Changes:

• Undid the Airblast changes from the Mecha Update

For those who don't know, this is what that update changed, and what I'd like to see undone:
• Added a vertical angle-cap to airblasts; pushforce is since unconditionally applied from below the target.
  
• Added a turnability-stun, disabling airstrafing on airblasted targets.

This change is what remains the main reason for people to complain about the Airblast ever since. Before it, the Pyro had to actually aim upwards to blast people upwards - now any airblasted target recieves an upward bump even if the Pyro is standing on their head and airblasting straight down.
Also, have you ever wondered why you can't surf out of airblasts like it is the case for every other source of knockback? The reason is the stun mechanic added in the very same update - nobody knows why they did that, considering noone out there ever complained about airblasts being too reactive of a feature prior to that tweak. My guess is that they didn't deem it fair to only take control away from the Pyro's side, so they also removed the recieving end's performance from the equation for good measure :V

• All Flamethrowers:
[+] Fire dries liquid-based status-effects on allies.
[+] 20% increased base-damage.
[-] 30% increased damage fall-off.

You can now hit up to 20% increased damage up close, allowing the Flamethrower match about a Shotgun's damage/sec output at contact range, if you are accurate enough. On the other hand, damage per particle decays 30% faster, meaning that the further half of the cone carries about the same damage as before the Pyromania buff - good positioning is everything.

• 7% increased base-movespeed.

The logical consequence - or rather the requirement - of making the damage output more reliant on good positioning is enabling good positioning.
Why needed? Well, as it stands, the Pyro despite his limited range is unable to catch up with any class save the ones that have access to blast-jumps [for as long as they aren't blast-jumping, that is] and.. well.. the Heavy. Most importantly though this buff would put the Pyro's movespeed on the a level that's actually allowing him to keep up with the Medic, the most important class for him to protect.

• Afterburn:
[+] Afterburn is no longer doused by small and medium health-packs.
[-] Afterburn is only applied by hits dealing at least 4 damage.


• Degreaser
[-] Added "7% movespeed penalty".

W+M1 aid? No thanks

[5'6 ceiling goblin]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Цитата допису Radiant Malevolence:

I don't think the slower draw speed is necessary, but slower swing rate would be a much better nerf then what Valve did. +1

Most Pyros prefer to use the Axtinguisher with the Degreaser,in my opinion it is necessary.

You're just one of those scrubs who thought it was op before the nerf.
It sucked before AND after the nerf.

[Sherry]

Цитата допису C14:

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Most Pyros prefer to use the Axtinguisher with the Degreaser,in my opinion it is necessary.

You're just one of those scrubs who thought it was op before the nerf.
It sucked before AND after the nerf.

Yes,I did think it was OP before the nerf,but with the nerf it's safe to say it's UP. That's why I thought of this nerf idea.

[TF Comics #7]

It was balanced with the game before the nerf. Either revert it or rework it entirely.
A slightly-nerfed Axtinguisher will still be bad compared to the Powerjack.

[lolschrauber]

slightly nerf weapon swap speed of degreaser
slightly nerf firing speed on axtinguisher

[lolschrauber]

Цитата допису C14:

anyway if you were close enough to a pyro to be in his rather short effective range and not see him and shoot him with hitscan (which he can do nothing against), you deserved to die.
how do you not understand such a simple concept

Really? You expect people to kill a pyro before they get killed, rather than whining on the forums?

[walrus was here]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

W+M1 aid? No thanks

Not like W+M1 is insanely easy to counter or anything

[5'6 ceiling goblin]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Цитата допису Walrus on LSD:

Not like W+M1 is insanely easy to counter or anything

Especially as a Soldier! When did I NOT die from either the afterburn or blowing each other up? If I kill him with a shotgun when he is close up,I will likely die from the afterburn. If I blow him up when he is close up... well then death is near certain with the splash damage AND the afterburn. Scout and Medic can get away,but the other classes... aren't so lucky. No W+M1 Pyro is gonna chase you from sniping distance,keep in mind.

the shotgun kills him faster than he can do 140 damage

[5'6 ceiling goblin]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Цитата допису C14:

the shotgun kills him faster than he can do 140 damage

The afterburn is a b*tch if you don't find any health nearby. Only if he is slightly further away from actually setting me on fire,then it's possible. Also I swear this is getting off-topic.

medics cure afterburn

[walrus was here]

Цитата допису Sheridan:

Цитата допису C14:

the shotgun kills him faster than he can do 140 damage

The afterburn is a b*tch if you don't find any health nearby. Only if he is slightly further away from actually setting me on fire,then it's possible.

If you have problems countering afterburn, try using Black Box. Or Conqueror. Or Gunboats, to rocket jump away easier.

[Lagger]

Цитата допису Radiant Malevolence:

I don't think the slower draw speed is necessary, but slower swing rate would be a much better nerf then what Valve did. +1

This. A million times.