Artificial Intelligence Blues

[OddManSam]

Just want to throw this out there/vent frustration about the AI research projects. HOLY CHRIST I HAVE THE WORST ♥♥♥♥ING LUCK WITH THESE ♥♥♥♥ING ROBO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! ♥♥♥♥!

OK, now that that's out of the way am I missing something on the AI techs? I mean, I have had a rebellion all but one time, and it seems like the AI Virus (the thing that is supposed to cancel the rebellion and give you your planets back) doesn't actually DO anything. At the time of writing this I had an AI rebel either just as, or possibly BEFORE the AI tech actually finished research. It then took forever to re-research AI, AI Industry, and AI Virus to attempt to deal with this problem and I had the AI Slaves tech and was STILL getting pressed by Rebel AI cruisers; which it can apparently spawn at ♥♥♥♥ING WILL AND BUILDS NOTHING BUT.

Am I missing a way of dodging the event? Or is it just something that might/might not happen? And what the hell is the AI virus tech actually supposed to do in the event that it is not supposed to end the rebellion and eliminate the AI faction, then AI Slavery gave you access to the AI bonuses that you couldn't have because of the rebellion. What is the deal?

*EDIT* I was mistaken about AI Virus restoring planets; I was not that familiar with the game mechanics at that time. I am still mystified that what I still read and understand as the hard-counter to the AI rebellion doesn't do what it says it does.

[FerrusPugnum]

Don't research the techs that create self aware machines to prevent the rebellion. I am not sure of the percentage chance but certain techs trigger the possibilities. I think the wiki can give you exactly what the triggers are. That ai take over really can wipe you out quickly if no allies to help you out.

Have fun!

[BlueTemplar]

Not sure why you thought it would give you your planets back. It's not like the virus is going to resurrect the people that were killed by the AI's...
http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/AI_Virus
With emphasis on "original".

Also, try to wait until AI techs are under 5 turns of research time, in my experience, the faster you research them, the less likely you are to get a rebellion (as long as you don't boost!)

[OddManSam]

Yeah, that was probably wishful thinking on my part. I don't write things well when I'm not still kinda angry at my own bad luck, and I was really pissed that the AI research decided to come around and bite me before I even finished the base tech research this time. I would also like to mention that ALL the AI research tech tooltips told me it would take 3 turns to research them. They kept going overbudget even with research getting the lions share of my imperial income. What I would like from the AI virus tech is for it to stop the rebellion like it says it should, but for whatever reason decided not to this time around. I also checked the wiki (off of the link there) and all it says is "The chance of a rebellion is checked for every turn of research, though it is balanced so that slower research is not skewed against. There is also an additional chance of a rebellion when you boost your research." Make of that what you will.

Originally posted by bluetemplar85:

Not sure why you thought it would give you your planets back. It's not like the virus is going to resurrect the people that were killed by the AI's...
http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/AI_Virus
With emphasis on "original".

Also, try to wait until AI techs are under 5 turns of research time, in my experience, the faster you research them, the less likely you are to get a rebellion (as long as you don't boost!)

[BlueTemplar]

Well, the flavor text implies that there's a negative effect on your empire following an AI rebellion (in addition to the lost bonuses and planets), but AFAIK there's none (besides the risk of contagion for your AI command section - equipped ships?)

Crippling some of the AI ships is a pretty nice boost!

[chuftka]

I just had an AI rebellion in my latest solo game. Ended the game, basically. It happened when I was in the middle of researching the basic AI tech. Of course had to start that over again. Researched AI, then AI Virus, then AI Slaves. Nothing made a dent in the AI empire, whose ships were significantly better than mine, were being built much faster, on an apparently unlimited budget etc. After spending 30 turns fruitlessly trying to recapture one of my old worlds I quit and reloaded from another player's point of view (Liir). They could see further AI stuff I couldn't as it had spread elsewhere, and the AI's fleet was significantly larger than mine despite a number of battles where I tried to get rid of what I thought were remnant fleets. (Turns out the AI can keep colonizing new worlds even after Virus supposedly sterilizes all their worlds.) I also noticed the System Killer had just appeared, aimed directly at my ally's homeworld....

I think Rebellion is your basic "start a new game" event, or perhaps reload the turn and hope it doesn't occur this time. Not sure when the random roll is made or how far back you have to go.

[OddManSam]

Originally posted by chuftka:

I just had an AI rebellion in my latest solo game. Ended the game, basically. It happened when I was in the middle of researching the basic AI tech. Of course had to start that over again. Researched AI, then AI Virus, then AI Slaves. Nothing made a dent in the AI empire, whose ships were significantly better than mine, were being built much faster, on an apparently unlimited budget etc. After spending 30 turns fruitlessly trying to recapture one of my old worlds I quit and reloaded from another player's point of view (Liir). They could see further AI stuff I couldn't as it had spread elsewhere, and the AI's fleet was significantly larger than mine despite a number of battles where I tried to get rid of what I thought were remnant fleets. (Turns out the AI can keep colonizing new worlds even after Virus supposedly sterilizes all their worlds.) I also noticed the System Killer had just appeared, aimed directly at my ally's homeworld....

I think Rebellion is your basic "start a new game" event, or perhaps reload the turn and hope it doesn't occur this time. Not sure when the random roll is made or how far back you have to go.

I have basically adopted the instant start over when the AI rebellion happens because, as I have mentioned, the tech that most people would reasonably think that eliminates the AI threat completely, doesn't.

[Fulano]

I wouldn't think that the Virus and Slaves would affect an AI empire that is already established, just prevents them if they try to separate from your empire.

I am curious though if the Nano Virus actually makes good on it's promise to be extremely effective on AI rebellion planets.

Currently I only research the AI techs last, if I'm winning, because these rebellions seem to happen so fast.

[chuftka]

Well I think they only happen 1 game in 4, going by player reports. So three games out of four you will get a massive advantage if you research the AI techs. And the computer players do research them. I've even seen AI rebellions in their empires.

Unless you can win 75% of the time against the computer without it, researching AI is usually a good move. Usually.

I should note I have modded the game so the race I am playing will be able to research every non-race-specific tech every game, so I always have access to AI Virus and AI Slaves in my research tree. I research AI, then Virus, then Slaves, before researching AI Administration, AI Factories, or AI Fire Control. If you are playing the game straight up, then only the Morrigi have a solid chance (90%/90%) of getting Virus and Slaves. Everybody else is far lower and should probably stay away from AI research.

If you do get the rebellion you will lose a third of your empire to a much stronger opponent and it is probably game over if you are not totally dominating the other factions already. If you are already dominating them, then why bother to research AI in the first place?

In theory you could reconquer the AI but the time it takes would probably cost you the game if the other empires are continuing to grow while you struggle to just get back what you used to have.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

It's very important to note that AI virus *does not* stop a rampaging AI like you think it's supposed to.

If you have AI virus before your AI rebels, you will lose no planets, but will lose all the AI bonuses.

If you have a rebellion and then get AI virus, it might destroy all AI population that exists on the worlds you previously owned (I'm actually unsure on that one), but that will only set them back a little bit (see below). The biggest benifit of getting AI Virus after a rebelion is going to be the chance of getting AI slaves. The other benefit is that you willl have a good chance of instantly crippling any ship with an AI command section (which is every AI ship) that you enter combat with. This includes ships that belong to other empires and also includes your own ships if your enemies research AI virus and you tend to use that section.

Here's why AI rebellions are so powerful:
They start with your whole tech tree + every AI tech and those are very powerful bonuses.

AI factions completely ignore CH (because they're machines).

AI factions don't need colonizers. Every time one of their ships visits an uninhabited world, they just shoot a pod of nano machines or whatever at it and it instantly colonizes.

Their population growth rate is through the roof too. I don't remember for sure and can't find the actual number with a quick search, but I think it was something like expect a full million population after the first turn.

Those 4 factors equate to a massive economic advantage for the rebel AI if you don't cripple it immediately. AI rebellions will also spread across faction boundaries in a potentially massive chain reaction if more than one faction has AI tech. If both factions are of the same race, the two AI rebellions will merge into one big AI faction. If they are different races, they will be separate allied AI factions.

Additionally, they will be able to research any tech in the game that is not totally prohibited to their base faction. To put it another way, a hiver rebel AI can always research meson projectors, but never node missiles.

Originally posted by chuftka:

researching AI is usually a good move. Usually.

I hold the opposite opinion. I think it's almost always a terrible move. It's like you said, If you're not already dominating the other factions, going for the AI unlocks is a lot like saying, "I would like to roll the dice and have a 20% chance of losing the game outright, please." To my mind, this means it's only really worth taking that chance if you are definitely *losing*. The thing is, there is really a very narrow margin between "Losing so badly that it doesn't matter what I try" and "Losing just enough that AI will turn the tide". It takes very good scouting and a lot of experience to really have a sense of exactly where that margin is. If you don't detect it and exploit it at just the right time, it's not going to matter.

Of course, there is a big exception to that logic for players that like to save scum.

Originally posted by chuftka:

I should note I have modded the game so the race I am playing will be able to research every non-race-specific tech every game

That may be a game changer on the AI front. I don't know, I don't run the game like that. I understand the reasons that an unlocked tech tree seems like a good idea, but it would really take a lot of the flavor out of the distinct factions imho.

[chuftka]

I leave the tech tree in place for all the computer player factions. Just not mine. So there is plenty of flavor. Just no irritating games where I get Silicoids but no light emitters, the enemy uses missiles and I get no point defense etc. Don't miss those games at all.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

To run with the emitter example, Liir are normally the only faction that's particularly likely to get them, with humans about half the time and everybody else gets them rarely. Emitters are meant to be an incentive to play liir (and honestly, not a great one). To put it another way, tech tree odds are a big part of the flavor of each race. If you are playing hive with an unlocked tech tree, they will play pretty differently than they do with the stock tech tree.

I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm not even saying that you *shouldn't* do it if that's your thing. I'm just saying that it seems bland to me. Finding and exploiting the strengths of your particular faction and finding ways to overcome your weaknesses is a big part of the experience.

[chuftka]

I guess I find the game so tough even with the unlocked tree that I feel no need for random handicaps. The galaxy layout is random enough and often forces a restart.

[Skywolf*]

For a while I played with 100% point defence - but to make it fair I gave it to all races.
Game was just too annoying without.
Then as I got better I found I could "make do" even without PD or emitters (but it is hard and you need luck)

[chuftka]

I have found every NPC player gets point defence every game, which is one thing that spurred me to unlock the whole tech tree every game for whatever race I am playing.

[Skywolf*]

Originally posted by chuftka:

I have found every NPC player gets point defence every game, which is one thing that spurred me to unlock the whole tech tree every game for whatever race I am playing.

I have seen two games (with original tech files) where NPC did not have it (or did not use it) - but 5 where I did not. Skywolf just "lucky" I guess :-/