Wolves: Some Clarifications

[Hinterland_Studio]

Hello! This isn't to refute anything about the current feedback with wolves being OP, too prevalent, etc. We hear that feedback.

This is more of a check to see if people understand how wolves currently "work" and if there's something lacking in our current feedback, UI, etc. that is maybe hiding some of the gameplay intention, especially around the Wolf Struggle component.

Wolf Behaviour

* Wolves spawn in regions in the world, and have a territory they "patrol". They will pretty much remain in that territory unless they detect you and decide to follow you.
* When they detect you, they elicit a kind of bark, and if they are close enough they go into a kind of "stalking" mode, which should be obvious by the change in animation and growling.
* Their detection of you is based on a range. They can hear you, smell you.
* If you do not manage to clear distance from them once they are in the stalking mode, they will eventually switch into an attack state, where they close distance with you. If they get to you, this will trigger a Struggle.
* If they are chasing something else (ex. deer), they will ignore you.

Struggle Attack

* The wolf does DoT (Damage over Time).
* You build up Strength to attack back by tapping LMB.
* You can release this built up Strength as an attack by clicking RMB.
* If you fill up the Strength bar fully, you will do much more damage.
* The more Fatigued you are, the harder it is for you to build up Strength.

The trade-off is: build up many small attacks and potentially reduce the amount of time the wolf is mauling you (DoT) sooner, OR take the damage but build up to the full-strength attack which has a much better chance of scaring the wolf off and/or killing it.

General Wolf Deterrents

* Lit flares will deter a wolf from attacking you, some of the time. If you have a lit flare and you advance at a wolf, it will attack you. The strategy here is use the lit flare to cover your escape.
* Thrown lit flares will almost always scare a wolf off. The trade off is if it doesn't, you are now far from your lit flare, with an angry wolf staring at you.
* Lit campfires will generally keep wolves away from you.
* You can drop food as a "decoy" if a Wolf is stalking you. The effectiveness of the "decoy" depends on the food item. Every food item has a scent value. Dropping raw meat, for example, is more effective than dropping a can of peaches. The wolf will stop to investigate the "decoy", buying you time to escape.
* You can kill a wolf with one successful shot from the Rifle.

Other Notes

* "Fluffy", like all wolves, is a random spawn in the Dam. We might need to tune the % chance down, but having him appear there is partly a balance to how loot-rich the dam is. Kill him and benefit from a safe, warm place you can stay for a while.
* You can pretty easily avoid wolves by just giving them a wide berth.
* Wolves can attack you when you Rest outside, especially if you rest in one of their spawn regions. Sleeping near a fire is a good solution to avoid this problem. Allowing them to attack/interrupt outdoor activities is part of the cost/risk of those activities.
* All wildlife spawns have a % chance of spawning per game. Some are more likely to appear than others, each game. This is to allow you to get a sense (learn) where you can typically expect to find them. Outside of the well-trafficked/obvious areas (ex. where you would see corpses/carcasses and expect to find wildlife feeding on them), you may encounter them but much less frequently. This is to keep the world feeling dynamic.
* Some players have figured out how to use Wolves to hunt Deer for them.

Changes in the Pipeline

Likely in the short term...

* Incorporating the Knife (first) and Hatchet (eventually, we hope) into the Struggle mechanic.
* Tuning wolf presence in the world.

Likely in the longer term...

* (more types of wildlife that aren't wolves...)
* Making something useful from Wolf pelts/etc.

Wolves are not meant to be an enemy you actively try to tangle with. They are a deterrent and something you should avoid as much as you can. If you know you are entering an area where you expect to encounter a wolf (ex. the Dam), you go in prepared, if you can. Otherwise you take your chances and hope you can fight, and win. If you see one in the world, give it a wide berth and it will leave you alone. It may force you to take a longer route that uses up more energy, but it'll be safer in the long run. If you have to tangle with a wolf because it's a last resort, then it feels "fair" that it should be challenging.

None of this is to justify anything, only to explain how things currently work, in case that changes anything for anyone.

Thanks for all your notes about the Wolves in the game!

[Ottomic]

Originally posted by Hinterland:

* Incorporating the Knife (first) and Hatchet (eventually, we hope) into the Struggle mechanic.

[Bomoo]

Sounds great, dudes.

[ZombieF1]

One problem in the dam especially, at night, is: if you get pounced on while holding your lamp, your lamp just vanishes (unequiped) and you're staring at a black screen with the retro struggle mechanic (which seems more appropriate in total darkness I guess).

This was my first encounter with a wolf (that I thought was a dog) and the struggle mechanic (that took me several seconds just to figure out), during my early time with the game. I was rather enjoying myself until that moment - after (and during) which I was just in a bad mood. You may as well put a beware the silent wolf sign on the door, rather than just in the forums ;) Speaking of which, maybe put guide for a dealing with wolves in the game.

And some people are saying this is a survival game without monsters? Tsk.

*Soapbox*: I had to play the game to realise I don't much like it (which has happened with a lot of games recently), but it has made me hungry for a similar game with a larger, preferably procedurally generated world, a much more genuine usage of the word 'simulation' and much more sophisticated game design (something the industry is badly lacking) - and a bigger price tag obviously. I wouldn't want much replayability from this game, just a few enjoyable hours (some more game options could cater to this). Nice wind sounds, and some other things though.

[Ottomic]

Originally posted by ZombieF1:

*Soapbox*: I had to play the game to realise I don't much like it (which has happened with a lot of games recently), but it has made me hungry for a similar game with a larger, preferably procedurally generated world, a much more genuine usage of the word 'simulation' and much more sophisticated game design (something the industry is badly lacking) - and a bigger price tag obviously. I wouldn't want much replayability from this game, just a few enjoyable hours (some more game options could cater to this). Nice wind sounds, and some other things though.

Being a three day old alpha, it would be understandable (kinda expected, really) that this game will be more fleshed out and accurate* in the future.

*I've found that some of the complaints that surface inmediately after a game is released adressing lack of realism stem from the fact that the game is not doing what the player is expecting would like, which is a fair reason for a complaint from a gaming standpoint, but not because of lack of realism. The previous system (or lack thereof) was more realistic, in that I have my doubts about an unarmed human's ability to take on a wolf in a fight. Wolf pounces on you, you die. Easy as that.

Then again, this is a game after all, and what's important is not so much realism as just a game being fun and having sense on itself. So yeah, ask for changes in the Struggle system if you want (you're certainly not the only one to ask for them), but please ask for something fun to play, not something *realistic*.

[Fluoride]

Lots of good information, thank you devs! :) The part that I found interesting is their current behavior and it does bring some thoughts to my mind.

As of right now the wolf AI is fairly binary, and can be summed up into "patroling" and "attacking". I say this because after multiple wolf encounters I haven't once witnessed one go into a "stalk" mode at all. When I have gotten within range of a wolf it's been pretty much a bark and then having it immedatelly start running towards me. This is the first I've heard they even have a stage between the two.

As you guys start to work more on the wolf AI behavior I would like to see you guys put some thought into the wolf's "purpose" for it's decision making. For example, there can be multiple reasons that a wolf would attack a human, ranging from hunger, territory, fear or even disease. A lone wolf that is starving would be more likely to attack a human on sight, a rabid wolf far more likely. In contrast, a wolf that is secure with a pack and has just fed on a fresh deer should be more likely to move to avoid the human at semi-parrallel path to keep it's eye on the player, or perhaps stand it's ground and growl to give warming and ward the intruder off it's territory, but with no intent to attack unless provoked.

Basically this can be summed up, why would a healthy and fed wolf have any reason to attack a human unless it felt threatened? And you can use this thought-process on any of the wildlife or other AI might have for possible behaviors. You can even go deeper with this and have behaviours change for AI that are in groups instead of being alone.

For wolves specifically, I would actually like to see them be overall less aggressive and perhaps take on more of a scavenging role when interacting with the player on a more regular basis. They should still remain dangerious predators, but they can be difficult in other ways than just outright attacking on sight. If, for example, players are ever allowed to "store" food in the snow to keep it fresh longer, there is the risk that wolves may find it, or even having a very rare chance a wolf may get inside your shelter and sniff around for any non-canned goods it's nose will lead it to. These encounters would likely result in the wolf running away when caught (if it isn't already long gone) with little to no chance of the player being physically attacked, but there is still difficulty and damage to the player.

But as of right now, these are just thoughts I wanted to share, and I'd be happy to elaborate more if anybody is interested. Otherwise my goal is not to try and dilute the difficulty of the game, but instead to provide some thoughts on how the difficulty can have more quality. :)

[EvilRobot69]

One of my biggest problems is how quickly the wolf can sometimes kill you. I've gone from 100% condition to dead in a matter of 1-3 seconds (usually dead at around 60% condition), without any kind of sufficient time to fight the wolf off. My girlfriend watched me suffer one of these plights one time -- I had maybe at most a second to react. The struggle mechanic needs to be rebalanced to be much more... apparent as to what's going on, and your success. As well as a little more time.

The other thing with wolves is that most won't attack an adult human if they have no need to do so. Obviously the game needs a threat here, but one could add in more threats such as mountain lions and bobcats, which would present different kinds of threats.

[Arco]

Thanks a lot for the full explanation of the wolves behavior, I am sure that this will solve many questions :)

[Arco]

Could I suggest to place this post as a sticky one? I think that the information you provide is extremely important at this stage of EA and would clarify many people's concerns about wolves which is one of the hottest topics...

Thanks!

[ZombieF1]

Originally posted by Ottomic:

I've found that some of the complaints that surface inmediately after a game is released adressing lack of realism stem from the fact that the game is not doing what the player is expecting would like, which is a fair reason for a complaint from a gaming standpoint, but not because of lack of realism. The previous system (or lack thereof) was more realistic, in that I have my doubts about an unarmed human's ability to take on a wolf in a fight. Wolf pounces on you, you die. Easy as that.

Then again, this is a game after all, and what's important is not so much realism as just a game being fun and having sense on itself. So yeah, ask for changes in the Struggle system if you want (you're certainly not the only one to ask for them), but please ask for something fun to play, not something *realistic*.

You misunderstand. Lets just say I don't think this game should describe itself as a simulation, at all. I'm not saying I want *this* game to be one so much (it doesn't have room for that, I think, not without being pretty much a different game). But some realism in various areas could only increase the fun. Of course we want it to be fun *sigh*, the example I gave earlier showed how much the opposite of fun this wolf stuff can get. (though no doubt some people would think even that was fun).

The previous system wasn't realistic. A guaranteed canned pounce-on from a silent wolf (even on a hard floor) within a certain range, followed by a button mashing red bar buildup? Not to mention having to read the little tutorial to figure it out (hold or button mash? Oh I see. Ah I'm dead). That's more the opposite of realism for someone who isn't frozen in fear. As for the lamp, 'putting it back in your backpack' (unequipping) isn't exactly realistic either.

Good design is difficult, sometimes very difficult (and I'm not doing it for them). Bad design is easy, and common - and often defended by people who can't see beyond it or are invested in believing it to be good.

I know it's not a finished game yet but... we'll see. I'm not exactly filled with confidence. And hey, enjoy it if you can ;)

[Fridge Lord]

Thanks for the guide!

[ZombieF1]

Originally posted by EvilRobot69:

The other thing with wolves is that most won't attack an adult human if they have no need to do so. Obviously the game needs a threat here, but one could add in more threats such as mountain lions and bobcats, which would present different kinds of threats.

Apparently the wolves have been affected by whatever caused all the technology to fail, or so I read. That needs making clearer it seems (and maybe optional).

Not everyone needs 'monsters' in the game. Some just/mostly want to struggle against the elements. Not necessarily saying I'm one of them, or that you would presume such ;)

[Aito]

Originally posted by ZombieF1:

One problem in the dam especially, at night, is: if you get pounced on while holding your lamp, your lamp just vanishes (unequiped) and you're staring at a black screen with the retro struggle mechanic (which seems more appropriate in total darkness I guess).

This was my first encounter with a wolf (that I thought was a dog) and the struggle mechanic (that took me several seconds just to figure out), during my early time with the game. I was rather enjoying myself until that moment - after (and during) which I was just in a bad mood. You may as well put a beware the silent wolf sign on the door, rather than just in the forums ;) Speaking of which, maybe put guide for a dealing with wolves in the game.

And some people are saying this is a survival game without monsters? Tsk.

*Soapbox*: I had to play the game to realise I don't much like it (which has happened with a lot of games recently), but it has made me hungry for a similar game with a larger, preferably procedurally generated world, a much more genuine usage of the word 'simulation' and much more sophisticated game design (something the industry is badly lacking) - and a bigger price tag obviously. I wouldn't want much replayability from this game, just a few enjoyable hours (some more game options could cater to this). Nice wind sounds, and some other things though.

The long dark is survival game. And just being told what to do, What not to do. How to avoid the wolf in the dam. How to get to the hunting lodge ect ect. Being outright told what to do simply defeats the entire point of the exercise. In survival games you have to survive. you need to learn and you need to learn fast. and maybe you will fail the first bunch of times. But you will learn from those mistakes and say to yourself "Lets do this again, and proberly this time"

Saying stuff like "maybe put guide for dealing with wolves in the game" Is like saying. "Dont be a survival game" You dont know how to deal with wolves in the game, and you are supposed to learn. Not be told. That is the beauty of this genre.

[astrea_anerada]

Originally posted by Hinterland:

.....................
* If they are chasing something else (ex. deer), they will ignore you.
................

I "rofl" after reading this because I remembered that it happened to me once as I thought that I was gona be attacked by the wolf but instead the wolf ignored me and kept hunting the deer ^_^

Thank you for the full explanation on "Wolves" Hinterland and wishing all the best

[Artist]

Why not include the ability to scare off a wolf by running towards them? It could be a chance thing, where a certain percentage of the time they might attack and another percentage of the time they would run away from you. Possibly more realistic?

[astrea_anerada]

Originally posted by adt79:

Why not include the ability to scare off a wolf by running towards them? It could be a chance thing, where a certain percentage of the time they might attack and another percentage of the time they would run away from you. Possibly more realistic?

Wolves in the game are extremely hungry ;)