To be or not to be (Turn Based), that is the question...

[chilko]

Let me start by saying that having the chance to re-imagine Master of Orion is a dream come true for us. We took this opportunity with the outmost responsibility as we know that we are dealing with one of the most important strategy games of all time here.

We tried to stay true to the originals in every possible aspect (Design, Art, Sound) while bringing the classic up to current standards in production values and user experience.

That being said, let's talk about our decision of going Real-Time (with pausing) with our tactical battles instead of turn based.

Is Turn based the best for MoO?

Master of Orion is meant to be an expressive game, with a huge possibility space where players can decide to use different strategies, growth/progression paths and even design their own ships.

We worked for a long time on a turn based tactical mode, but we realized that it would never be as good, not only for today's standards but for the kind of experience that MoO was always trying to provide.

Usually good turn based strategy games require the following:

• An Interesting board layout (usually provided by terrain or ad-hoc restrictions to movement like in chess).
  
• A small set of pieces or units (to make each turn and the whole match bearable).
  
• Distinct units with specific roles and intransitive relations between them (melee, ranged, artillery, etc / rock, paper, scissor, etc)

Now try to imagine this in the context of MoO:

• It is almost impossible for Space to provide an interesting enough board (even if you cram it with debris, asteroids and other ad hoc stuff), even more so if you want to make it look like 3D space.
  
• Unit count could vary greatly depending on the style of play (this was already a problem in MoO2).
  
• Units are designed by the player; they can be multi-purposed or very specialized so specific roles get thrown out the window.

There are other problems with TBS in this context:

• First mover has a big advantage in most cases (this can be counterbalanced with things like initiative systems which adds a great level of unwarranted complexity)
  
• We would need to have a huge board to represent progression (movement speed, weapon ranges, etc.).
  
• It's very hard to use the advantage of having a 3D rendered world mechanically.
  
• It will probably still not look as good or be as immersive as RTS.

Now let's talk about some of the benefits of RTS with Pause:

• We have a finer degree of control and we can represent a greater deal of attributes (acceleration, speed, turn rate, etc, ranges, angles). This leads to a better simulation and greater possible expression in terms of ship design.
  
• We can play with interesting tactical mechanics such as squadrons and formations.
  
• We don't need a grid and we avoid inherent balance problems such as diagonal speed or hex like movement.
  
• The player can always pause the action in order to make the right calls at the right time with as much time for analysis as he may require.
  
• We can have huge battles without them taking hours.

Our conclusion:

The level of tactical depth is not given by the speed at which you make decisions but about the level of impact that these decisions have in the battlefield.
A big part these decisions in MoO (both the old and our new version) are made in the ship designer and a real time tactical mode allows for a better simulation of that.

We love MoO and we are making this game for the fans. We wouldn't have made such a drastic decision without a profound understanding of the problem and the approval of our advisors who worked on the original games.

RT tactical mode is not finished. It requires more work and polish as it needs to become challenging. This requires an actual AI and proper balance. It remains a work in progress, but a very promising one.

In the end what we want to do in the end is what games like Baldur's Gate did for strategic RPGs. Keep the level of tactical depth, while making the experience more engaging, and making it look spectacular.

I hope that after reading this you can give us the benefit of the doubt and continue helping us making this game a true successor to the MoO legacy.

Best,

- Chilko

[Fichtamoped]

i want tbs...u can call that combat we have here whatever u want..its a shame they even implemented that!

[Achillus]

Game needs a mode where it pauses every 5 seconds waiting for you to unpause it via a "Next turn" button :p


Space combat has pause and speed change buttons. You can slow or stop at any time to give every single ship new orders.... that works for me.

I'd rather have a real time combat system.
Some people want turn based combat for old time's sake and nostalgia goggles.
I guess most players that haven't played the old MoO games would prefer real time as well.

If you really really want to change something drastic about the game: get rid of starlanes and reintroduce fuel :D

[shawnfred73]

Honest I don't see the apeal to the old MOO2 TBS combat. YES for its time it was good and the first of its kind but now its SO boring and out of place.

the MOO2 combat was ok with very small fleets battled with limited tech.

I do agree with new MOO RTS combat needs work but at least both sides now get a chance to make moves and both have some sort of strategy.

[Achillus]

But yes the current real time combat system still needs some work.
Custom formations where you can tell your more vulnerable ships to stay behind the tankier ones for example.
If you plan to add boarding (and I hope you do) I'd love to see an option where you can tell your ships to target specific systems (engine, weapons) to prepare for your assault pods.

[Jingo]

I like that decision. Now stand your ground and deliver.

[mewianna]

Disappointing. Auto-resolve it is then, all the way, forever.

[Avalanche]

Originally posted by KhanIndustries:

Summed up:

We tried to do turn based combat but we failed.

Excuses.

We realize we JarJar'd it by not having turn based combat.

Please buy the game anyway.

Actually, no, they are just saying something you don't like and so you make it mean what you want it to mean and that is 'they messed up, they were wrong, you were right' dude, seriously?

I read what they posted and i can understand what they said and what they meant, was that they studied the possibilities of turn-based or real-time and real-time wins out and i while i love playing MoO2, i am quite bored of the primitive combat system, which always favours the one with the higher initiative and i have yet to face any AI enemy that even faced a shot, except for the Antaran Homeworld.

I mean, when i encountered the Guardian in the Orion System on MoO2, i had 4 battleships, i was slightly less advanced as the guardian, but my initiative was higher and so since it was Turn-Based, the Guardian never got a shot off, but if it was real-time, i might have lost atleast a single ship...maybe 2, maybe all of them, this is why i like Real time combat, it requires more thinking on the fly, since in games with real time combat, i never pause the combat.

I do just fine, so i am sure you can adapt and do the same as well.

[Uncle_Joe]

I greatly enjoyed the TB combat resolution of MOO2, but I feel that at this point, if properly done, a RT resolution would be fine. What we have now doesn't really fit the bill IMO but the basic elements are there.

Given that I would like to play this in MP games and not spend weeks to do one game, I'm OK with a faster RT element for combat. I would like to see it polished and balanced and then compare.

Even out of the box, MOO2's combat was bad since it was 'attacker moves first' leading to a lot of situations (usually late game) where the defender doesn't even get up to bat before being annihilated. It too until the 1.31 patch to get 'combat initiative' added and 'fix' the combat.

So I'm willing to give the new MOO some latitude and see where the Devs take it. YMMV.

[Zi]

MoO2 not failed to do immersive TBS combat 20 years ago with so small resources. And it is still the best one, as seems. Nowadays any company trying to reach it - fails due to... it is hard to do. It seems to be those Microprose guys actually were superintelligent Antarans from Orion?

So, it is confirmed. Moo finally dead. Now its become clear. Welcome to the new world of gummy bears and angry galaxy birds. You dumbing down that title/game, you know. I`m not sorry for my frankness, I`m just sad. Good bye.

[TheFourteen]

Originally posted by KhanIndustries:

Summed up:

We tried to do turn based combat but we failed.

As mean as it sounds, I have to agree with this.

Please, try and go back to the drawing board on this. Despite its flaws, a lot of people (me obviously included) loved the old combat and only had minor issues with it. There are a lot of space RTS games, and frankly I don't need another one (Sins of a Solar Empire really covers all the bases for me in this regard). I'm looking for a good turn-based strategy, which I will always prefer, and was hoping a faithful remake of Master of Orion would finally provide that. I'd wait however long it needed and pay double if I had to, just to finally get that experience again.

Sadly, the switch to RTS means this iteration won't be what I'm looking for and therefore I'll pass (just as I did with MoO3) - even though you seem to have nailed the flair of MoO2 (which had my hopes high despite initial reservations). As unlikely as it may be, I really hope the community feedback sways you to reconsider this decision.

[Ohtari]

I still play moo2 with friends and am amazed its still one of the best multiplatyer strategy space games out there. I just hope they will deliver a fun, challenging and replayable game to get me through the next 20 years

[Avalanche]

Originally posted by mewianna:

Disappointing. Auto-resolve it is then, all the way, forever.

why are you against real-time, i mean its your choice and all, but why don't you like it?

[Zi]

Originally posted by Lithari:

why are you against real-time, i mean its your choice and all, but why don't you like it?

Just try to do RTS chess. Or RTS HoMM, or RTS xcom. You will get lower quality experience, literally other kind of game, just shooter, that it. With lost control of your ships actually. So why to design them? You can now just autobuild ships, why not, anyways you will not be able to use their special abilities you designed in the best. Its just not so intelligent as turn based, you can see results of the poll here ( http://explorminate.net/2016/02/23/strategic-expanse-chris-keeling-of-wargaming/ ) for one small example, for many of MoO players it is important.

[Darq]

Originally posted by Zi:

MoO2 not failed to do immersive TBS combat 20 years ago with so small resources. And it is still the best one, as seems. Nowadays any company trying to reach it - fails due to... it is hard to do. It seems to be those Microprose guys actually were superintelligent Antarans from Orion?

So, it is confirmed. Moo finally dead. Now its become clear. Welcome to the new world of gummy bears and angry galaxy birds. You dumbing down that title/game, you know. I`m not sorry for my frankness, I`m just sad. Good bye.

Murica ♥♥♥♥ yeah

[billy]

i havent played this new game so it's unfair on me judging the real time combat...

but to me it's complete nonsense to say " we love the original and want to make a game for the fans" and then immediately change a huge part of the game to be completely different. That just sounds like all the other old nonsense companies making bad remakes say when they just change games and make them worse and then wonder how there game didnt end up great like the original.

Is this real time combat going to be so great? it's going to make me think this is a great RTS? i doubt it so why bother , just make a MOO game like the name suggests.

turn based games are pretty popular still , maybe as popular as they ever been, it's not like RTS games are booming and on and upward spiral.

I am willing to be proved wrong though but i won't be spending £30 to find out . Maybe if there's a demo or reviewers say it's good or someone i know recommends it .

Everyone i know like me just see it as a giant warning sign when they hear it's gone real time .