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Thats how i saw lmgs in OD since the high cop damage meant constantly taking cover a player wouldnt be able to take advantage of the large magazines for long periods of firing, so the light assault rifles kinda ended up doing the same role better, thats one of the reasons i think LMGs needed another look, just dont like the idea of overbuffing them to make their damage too high to match increased cop health
Well they dont need to buff it because of how stupidly powerfull shotgun tree is and was made around that
Every weapons can works on OD with strong sustainability weapon. However, the sustainability of G3 assault rifle is bad. I don't it is right to use a strong sustainability weapon like patchett , micro uzi to compare with a bad sustainability weapon like G3 assault rifle.
It's true that skill and perk are more important than player actual skill.
Have you seen someone able to Solo 3 different OD loud only heists without using any T4 skills and AI?
Is anyone can solo Goat simulator OD with Crew chief perk and without AI?
To start with we decided to change how LMGs work because we were not seeing anyone play with them. They were the least played weapon type in the game by a large margin.
Then the RPK being able to reach full crit and Dodge with a 30 concealment secondary is an anomaly we will patch out next update. We do not want to see Low Blow and Sneaky Bastard be part of the LMG tool kit anymore.
We are aware of the issue of the silencer skill being a straight 30% damage increase moves it into this “mandatory” set of skills. The intention is still to replace this skill, I cannot give a time or date for when it will happen as it is up to our production team to decide when we want to allocate time to fix this issue.
Also we aim to balance the game around Death Wish. We consider all other difficulty as well but we consider the difficulties to culminate at Death Wish.
That said let’s talk about the LMG vs Assault Rifles.
Currently on therms of shots to kill the LMGs and Assault Rifles perform very similar, while LMGs still require an higher skill point investment as well as being less accurate. However due to how generous their ammo pick up is, combined with their high rate of fire and large magazines, LMGs are being overly rewarding for how easy they are to use.
We will make additional tweaks to the LMGs in the future to make them less “brainless” to use, though we will not take away the firepower we granted them as we do believe the LMGs were in need of it to feel fun and viable.
On a final note on the power creep argument. We are currently working into bringing the LMGs more in line with all the other weapons, while they are too rewarding for how easy they are to use at the moment, they are far from out performing most of the current “meta” weapons.
I think the main reason is that Body Expertise is too weak.
Although buffing LMG can let LMG become a popular weapon choice, it let other weapon that rely on Body Expertise (low damage rifles and smgs) become unpopular because the difference between their performance are too huge now.
Also, Thanks for buffing the ammo pick up rate of Minigun.
It finally be a useful weapon on one down instead of a decoration in my inventory, Great Job
I think LMG is quite balance right now, but anyway, they used to have speed penalty, i think it may be a good time to return for some balance. On the other hand. the 46 and 80 damage AR really need some buff also, now the 40 damage AR,like G36 just replace the pre-buff LMG role,while the others AR , that can not fit into a low concealment built is even less used by player......umm...may be some special ammo type for AR is coming?
What happens now with regular assault rifles?
Those are pretty neglected too. I do not know if your metrics can filter by weapon mods, but I guarantee if you are seeing high usage of certain 40 damage rifles, it is because they can equip DMR kits. Most other rifles and SMGs I hardly see people using, and are not considered "meta". Are those going to receive reworks as well?
These problems will not go away until you revise enemy health and fix the outstanding bugs effecting enemy weapon stats. Balancing weapons against one difficulty, when you are responsible for seven, makes no sense, and will continue to make things worse.
Even though I'm happy because now my Lord Tachanka loadout is very effective on DW.
Without access to metrics, that was my impression, as well. I almost never see pubbies use LMGs, I rarely see even my close friens use LMGs despite me being able to influence their decisions somewhat and I've seen very, very few people actually defending LMGs here on the forums, outside of a small handful of us who use them regularly. And speaking purely from my own experience, we who use LMGs tend to be biased. I defended LMGs when they had a speed penalty and picked up ammo like an 80-round rifle, just because I like them in theory. That this is what the metrics say doesn't surprise me.
Without wishing to offend, this is something you should have done with the same patch which boosted their damage. The RPK being used for high concealment is more or less the one thing it's famous for. Sass aside, I fully support this action.
LMGs, as far as I'm concerned, have no business being used in low-concealment or silencer builds. Not only is it thematically silly (can I get 6 suppressors for my Minigun?), but it also serves to counteract their one primary balancing factor, which is their lower-than-average accuracy and stability. Over-focusing on Specailized Killing's 30% damage buff obscures what I'd argue is an even greater problem with silent LMGs, and that's The Professional. The added accuracy and stability from that skill turns LMGs in what I'd describe as "not LMGs." If I'm able to build my LMGs for high accuracy and stability, then there really isn't a point to using rifles.
I might have seen the argument of crits and silencer skills helping the arguably underperforming LMGs before the patch, but LMGs no longer underperfom after the patch. They no longer need these buffs, and I'd argue they shouldn't have had them in the first place.
Again - Specialized Killing is NOT the only silencer skill which is problematic. The Professional is just as problematic, if not even more so. You need to define what "role" silencers fill as distinctly different from Compensators and tailor their skills accordingly. Currently, the only distinction between Silencers and Compensators is one gets skills to improve it significantly and the other doesn't. Consider perhaps toying with suppression to either make it meaningful or entirely deny Silencers from causing it, even on a body shot. Just replacing Specialized Killing isn't going to be enough.
Penalising them for stability would be my first choice, before considering anything else. Currently, The Brenner and the RPK are just unstable enough to require some amount of recoil control to use properly but all the other LMGs are so stable that recoil on them is largely irrelevant. Dropping stability across the board - though within reason - would make using them require a bit more skill. If you're willing to do larger-scale changes, I'd say tweak LMG recoil profile. Reduce horizontal recoil somewhat, bias them towards vertical recoil and then drop stability significantly. If recoil is more predictable, then lower stability values can be more manageable.
Currently, LMGs have an almost meaningless recoil balance to the top right. As a result, low-stability LMGs will wander unpredictably in all directions, making recoil control more of a crapshoot than a skill-based thing. Making recoil more predictable but more severe would push them closer to a skill-based weapon and less of a "spray randomly and cross your fingers" weapon. Rifles already have this much more consistent recoil pattern. I should pull this off in its own thread.
Another issue i would like to point out is certain wespons being balanced aroud certain features but new weapons that are direct upgrades have been added, such is the case of peacemaker when compared to other revolvers and the light snipers wich have been recieving direct upgrades every new ones, so how do you plan to adjust rattlesnake as weapon with inferior ROF, mag size, concealment against a contractor wich is semi auto so that gives more freedom for its stats, after all just buffing ROF wont work for older ones since they are bolt action sniper.
On a small note do fix G3 assault kit, it has been screwed for god knows how long and last stream you called it DMR when asked
The reason why people don't use LMGs over the other meta weapons is because this is a horde shooting game. The longer the time an enemy sees you, the worse the situation is for the player. LMGs have the slowest shot to kill speed (Out of all the weapon types with a few exceptions being the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ 30 damage pistols and smgs.)
There's no way to fix this.
In a game like Payday 2, a slower time to kill is never a good thing and is almost never preferred over a faster time to kill, no matter what the circumstance. Yeah, LMGs give more clip and ammo, but if you're missing half the shots and take 3 seconds to kill an enemy, you'll be dead before the total ammo count even matters. I'd much rather just hit an enemy once and not even need to retreat into cover. Just tap on enemies heads, and you'll never even be hit because they'll die before they can return fire.
That being said my favorite weapon is the DLC KSP and I've been using it since Gage01 launch. I don't think that the damage increase was a good change. It made the LMGs better for sure, but not in the right way.
I would retract the damage back to what it was before. The Brenner and RPK becoming 80 damage is welcome, however.
Then, increase the ROF of all LMGs by 50% across the board, while also increasing their ammo and clip size by 30%.
Body expertise is another problem in itself. The skill isn't that good to begin with and feels more like it should be a tier 3 skill.
I would change it to something like:
Covering Fire
Basic: For every 4 bullets fired in continuum, a 5th bullet will fire simultaneously with the 4th bullet. The free bullet cannot deal headshot or critical damage and will not use ammo.
Aced: This effect now triggers after firing 3 bullets. The free bullet can now pierce body armor and up to one enemy, and is 100% accurate.
This skill will only activate for automatic weapons.
This would increase the damage output of the LMG and also reduce the time to kill, just like body expertise does right now. I just think it would be more interesting than "increase damage by x". It would also benefit crowd control since there are more bullets overall. It will fullfill the role that LMGs were always tasked to fullfill.