Dukes

[Barry White]

Why would i make dukes?
Initially i figured i should make all the duchy titles i can, i get more prestige and they are expensive so much be good right?
Well everything seems to indicate no. I only tax them 10% and they are all cantankerous so set the duchy noble tax to 0% meaning i get 0% tax from all the counts in the region and even if they didnt do this i would only get 1%. So really if i want money from those counties i need to give them all the duke but then he holds 4/5 counties so can raise a pretty substantial levy making them a nightmare if they are upset and the duke will invariably give at least 1 county away. If i only had counts then i would get 10% tax, they would all be weak and factions less of an issue because alone counts are meaningless.
Not only do i get less money but everyone is always complaining. Dukes want to have everything in their de jure duchy and if they dont then they have a -20 penalty for each thing on top of this if you have more than 1 kingdom then they want the de jure kingdom as well which is another -25 penalty. Destroying a duchy title reduces all opinions in that de jure duchy by 50 for either the rest of your life or 5 years which i consider worth it when you can just give all the counts a meagre 20 gold for a 20-60 relations boost as opposed to duke who want in the range of 70-100 gold.
Dukes can also vote in elective monarchy which is always annoying (if you have no duchies then only you can vote lol).
So what is the advantage of making dukes? Is it really just for easy consolidation of vassal levies and less people in the vassals tab to manage?

[_DaWe_]

Yes, the most important thing is that it is easier to manage fewer vassals. It may not count with a relatively little realm, but when you already own half of Europe, bribing a whole independence faction with counts is really slow (btw it would be nice if they implemented a button for every faction with which you could bribe everyone all at once, and maybe a slider to adjust above what opinion you want to bribe them). Another factor is that dukes (and above) generate technology points, while counts do not, so your realm won't progress with counts. Having said that, I usually stay with counts because of the tax reasons you mentioned.

[Sir Hornet]

if u have dukes factions are alot smaller but more powerful and i think dukes give u tax on their total earing so if u put tax at the 10% u will get some from their counts and less people to plot agaisnt you. and i normally find it easier to keep my demense in 2 duchies with no counts so no one wants my titles and keeps u stronger when dukes only have 1 duchy and 1 county to their name

[dm.harlin]

On the topic of the dukes wanting everything in the duchy.
I usually try to construct a realm the following way:
1) The king holds 2 duchies and all counties in them (choose according to your demesne limit)
2) Each duke may hold 1 duchy and no more than 2 counties, none of which is in his duchy

This way, the dukes are angry at eachother, but not at you. Dangerous factions will be rare.
Medium crown authority prevents them from waging war at each other, so there is peace.

The main things which are messing this up:
1) Counts dying without a heir, and duke inheriting
2) Dukes marrying each other, so heir gets 2 duchies

[Sir Hornet]

if u have so only males inherit then they cant marry eachother

[markdb92]

sir that would only work in muslim play though cause your dukes will switch it so ladys can lead thus causing super dukes to happan. To fix that you will need to make the male prefer but lady law be disabled.

[Barry White]

Still even if the dukes are angry at one another then how is that better than no dukes? It just means mini civil wars as opposed to no/tiny civil wars.

I find as well if you can maintain gavelkind (by killing off most of your sons/grandsons so you only have 1) then your realm is very stable as your vassals realm is split and they all have a relations + with you. This way they never get more than 2 counties and lose 1 on succession. But gavelkind sucks if you cant keep only 1 son.

[happy]

DUKES ARE VERY IMPORTANT



only dukes generate tech points, counts don t

so if you have only counts, no other territory than yours will develop technology

on the long run, like after 250 years, you ll end up with a third world kingdom, low structures, low, tech, low troops

if you had dukes, you probaly would be the most advanced kingdom on the map

[Barry White]

how much do they generate? when i mouse over the amount on the tech screen it doesnt list anything other than attributes, buildings, tech and the fact im a king. Do they generate it for their own demense?
I can usually keep my personal tech high by using good spymasters and min/maxing techs (i have no need for trade practices, construction isnt as important as keeps etc).

[happy]

i guess they generate the same way you do
knowledge plus military/economy/diplomacy stats give the annual rate
they generate tech for their capital, as you do
the techs developped there then spread to neighbouring counties

so having a genius duke is better than some stupid stooge

[Barry White]

why do i really care about my dukes tech? They can build better buildings but i only see 10%/20% of the income and my personal demense + retinue is more than enough to crush everyone who i declare war on. I rarely raise my vassal levies because it upsets them and id rather have +10% tax for -20% max levy because vassal levies are just annoying to compile compared to mercs.

[happy]

not all players play with retinue, game is harder without them, try without them
and, one good reason to care about your kingdoms tech lvl
you re playing CK2, your a ruler and probably are proud

would you be proud when you see your neigbours build cathedrals, have well organised fields and wear the latest armors, when you only have outdated rusted armour, starvation every winter and still worhship in a cellar?

i would nt

[Barry White]

it is true retinues are horribly op >:)
Still before i bought legacy of rome i treid not to use my vassal levies and leaving them low tech means revolts are less effective.

[happy]

play the way you want :), we play totally differently
i always call on vassals armies and rarely use either mercenaries or my own troops(only on rebellions do i sometimes use them)

[la_nague]

well, if you crush everything with your own levies somehow, then why are you afraid of dukes.

For the rest of us, dukes generate tech and that means better holdings, better troops, more taxes, more troops.


Only problem i have is that they plot to revoke countries and get bigger sometimes. But once they revolt i can revoke their stuff, so thats ok.

[happy]

i got it!

it all makes sense, when you rely on your troops all the time, no wonder you hate vassals^^
since your personnal army is always somewhat hurt, dukes are a serious threat, always have max troops and a good occasion to have a shot^^

best way to have constant rebellions!

seriously OP, if you played differently, you would have ten times less revolts and no hard time crushing them, as well as a developped country
vassals revolt when your power is somewhat fragile, your power is personnal troops and treasury

you are a king, that means you own every man in your kingdom, it is your right to raise armies in your name, it is your right to make dukes pay for them, your personnal troops are just here to remind them that you ve got the power to crush anyone getting cocky

if you spared your troops and treasure for important times, you would only have one revolt per king(or none at all), no duke would dare attack you and your maxed troops and huge mercenary fund

raising vassal troops makes your kingdom more stable

and richer...your own troops cost a lot of money, vassals troops are free, raising your troops all the time hits your income badly