New OPREP - Weapon Inertia

[Dwarden]

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-inertia

in the recent update of development branch you will find the new weapon inertia mechanics together with adjusted breathing and weapon sway.
They are going to significantly improve the overall weapon handling in our game.
Therefore we would like to start this thread to share thoughts and discuss opinions about such an important improvement to our game.
As with fatigue mechanics before, we would like to gladly ask you for a valuable, constructive and civilized feedback upon the issue.

feedback thread on our official BIForum:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Handling-Feedback-(dev-branch)

note: available for testing in 1.27 DEV branch

visual example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcPUKIGY0

note: please discuss in constructive manner...

[Feel+]

cant download the 1.26 patch , tried everything but still stuck at the 7.7 Gb unknown download,pls help

[Dj Otacon]

I think this is ... masochistic.

Right now the player fight against:

Exagerated sway.
Ridiculous aiming (why using better sights we have more sway?)
Excesive Fatigue...

And now (surprise...:)):

"your sights becomes slightly misaligned in the direction of that motion. After this movement stops, a short period of time is required for the sights to realign."

WFT???

Whats the point of all this? transform an agile, well prepared profesional solider in an reuma version of an permanent rookie soldier?

In a complete simulation we need all te benefits of a train. Improve aiming, improve resistance, reduce recoil, developing a full tactical awareness.. etc.

With all of this changes after run 30-40m we need 10-15 segs to aim properly. Meanwhile - only speak about the IA - needs only 1-2 seg... because dont have this severe problems.

All the people of this forum are asking for weapon resting to gain some time of help on combat but day after day we have only a strange version of the game where suffering all kind of problems ( realism?? ... no weapon resting???) and transform an agile game on a strange version of Arma 2.

Right now the gunplay of the game is worse than ever, we cannot do a single shot an feel the weapon under our control.

And please:

In the real world ( if this is a sim) the sights dont misaligned moving the weapon.

[B✪✪tsy]

Fix the hold breath or add bipods for heavy scoped rifles. Skill based weapon handling is fine and all, but high zoom scope is undoable for long range engagements unless you like to waste bullets to finally hit on target. Counter sway to compensate for sway while aiming at a target 1 click away is undoable and results in shocky sway/counter sway action through scope. Also please keep it on the dev branch till it is completely smoothend out, otherwise it will a spam of rants on the forum.

[Worthy85]

I like it, think you hit a pretty decent balance. I actually expected it to be worse/harder, especially for the larger weapons.

In fact if I was to change anything that would be to make the large calibre snipers feel heavier, as they should be almost impossible to fire accurately in the standing un-supported position. But as it is I think its not bad at all.

@DJ, you don't have more sway with scopes, its the same sway you would have with iron sights you can just notice it more because your scope magnifies it, scopes don't alter your ability to steady a weapon they just give you a closer sight picture.

Also in the real world you would struggle to keep you fore and rear sight posts aligned if you were moving around fast enough but you would still be accurate enough. Honestly these new systems are pretty good and about as life like as your going to get with a mouse and keyboard.

[Dwarden]

it would be worth to note that most of these changes (actual stable, actual dev branch)
are pre-requisite of features to come for Marksmen ...

[Dj Otacon]

"it would be worth to note that most of these changes (actual stable, actual dev branch)
are pre-requisite of features to come for Marksmen ..."

Please think: do believe that the people pay for an DLC in a game where we barely can shoot in long range?

Good luck with that.

[Sterling Archer]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Feel+:

cant download the 1.26 patch , tried everything but still stuck at the 7.7 Gb unknown download,pls help

feel this is wrong tread mate. have you tried to go to dev branch 1.27. play on it. then opt out of dev branch.

loving the inertia, and direction it is going thus far.

[Worthy85]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dj Otacon:

Please think: do believe that the people pay for an DLC in a game where we barely can shoot in long range?

But you can shoot at long range, and hit, consistently.

Also inertia doesn't really factor into long range shooting, or at least it shouldn't, unless your trying to 360 no scope someone from 1km away.

[Dj Otacon]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Worthy85:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dj Otacon:

Please think: do believe that the people pay for an DLC in a game where we barely can shoot in long range?

But you can shoot at long range, and hit, consistently.

Nope. When you shoot to more than 500m you have a severe sway. Not mention if you are shooted, then is imposible hit nothing.

To me isn't a problem because I have mods that remove the sway at all but.. why I need to create this mods? Why the game dont provide a good balance beetween realism and playability.

Using Arma 2 as reference you dont have sway barely and you have only problems shooting when you are injured ( this is a good choice), but now you have sway, bullet dispersion, fatigue... etc.

The final result of this is a pletora of mod that try to fix this.

[Dj Otacon]

And this dont will be a problem if the frame rate was good but right know in a mission with more than 10 soldiers in a 100m area you suffer a fps drop down to 20-30 fps.

If you try to shoot something with this sway and this erratic fps you have a huge gameplay problem.

[Worthy85]

I have no trouble hitting targets at 500m + with the right weapon/equipment, at least no more trouble than I would expect, and fps hasn't affected my aim in any measurable way so far but even if it did thats not really the weapon handling systems fault. In fact hitting targets at ranges over 1km is still a little too easy I feel.

What equipment are you using to engage targets at 500m?

A rifleman is expected to hit targets at 300-400m max, a section/fireteam can engage targets at around 600m max but only because weight of fire will overcome individual accuracy. 500m for an individual is marksman/sniper territory and beyond that you'll need a sniper or some other support, CAS, IDF ect. All of this is very doable in ARMA 3 if you know what your doing.

Anyway to bring things slightly more on topic, ARMA has always been about a strive for realism and in my opinion these new weapon handling and fatigue systems, including inertia, are a step in the right direction.

[Dj Otacon]

Sorry but I dont believe you.

Right now you sway even without start you movement if you run 20m the sway is so high that you loose you aim.

Even using iron sights the problem is the exaggerated sway and superb fatigue.

To me everything must have a purpose. Is useless to implement "realism" based on all kinds of difficulties to the player.

Right now and for the comments I hear from players of the tactics units. The general feeling is that the game is loosing his "touch" more and more.

If we add these exaggerations to new ideas from nothing as: " unaling sights by inertia movement" (read the last news about intertia") we have a game with a "difficult" gunplay

This is not a post against realism but a call to attention about the last changes that are placing the game in a dangerous no man's land.

I think the correct way would implement changes based on realistic ideas of a soldier with 3 months preparation. That is not a veteran nor a rookie soldier.

Inertia is a great idea but misalign the sights - to me - isn't a good idea.

[Worthy85]

Thats fine, you can believe what you like.

If your running you shouldn't expect to keep your aim on a distant target, or have instant accuracy the moment you stop. It takes a second or two to build a stable firing position.

The inertia system has a purpose, which is to make larger/heavier weapons more cumbersome in CQC thus making rifles, carbines and even SMGs a more viable option in such situations.

For myself and those I play with at least, these last few patches and the general direction BI are taking have been a positive, in fact you'll struggle to find a negative post in the bistudio forum version of this thread (http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Inertia-amp-Sway-Feedback-(dev-branch)).

Im interested to know what you believe a soldier with three months training is capable of, because the avatars in this game are capable of almost inhuman feats of fatigue and accuracy.

[Dj Otacon]

Well I make a test with the wepon inertia on the dev build.

The weapon inertia is mora than a cosmetic change than a game improvement.

Right now we make corrections to the fire using our aiming skills but... is very dependant to the minimun FPS. Below 30 fps the weapon inertia is a torture chamber.

And the recoil/sway/inertia using auto-machine guns is increased to the max. This kind of weapons are useless in movement you need put the gun into the ground to get good aim.

I prefer a movement side reduction using auto-machine guns than increase R/S/I but I think is too much if the gunner has fatigue.

The result of this changes are creating a positional game leaving the basics of agile game behind.

[Dj Otacon]

Is ovbious that you never has trained in a real military facility or using real weapons from an army.

A non trained soldier with only one week has severe problems to shoot in my personal experience in the army I can't shoot to nothing using a CETME the first week, two month later after the train I can shoot perfect with a weapon like the CETME - L and using an Zeta my aiming was better.

In movemente I can shoot in barely one second after touch the ground with no penalties after run 100-200m. with no problems.

The stable position is a falacy in urban combat if you stay more than 2 or 3 second under heavy fire probably you are dead, run and gun is the only solution on this war scenary but this is a game and create a debate about real movement is out of this thread.

As I said I speak about the game with players of milsim units and the general idea is this: "la estan cagando con el juego " - "BIS is scr*** the game" - .. this comment was posted in well know forum...

To me Arma 3 had the chance to be played like chess, with fast and accurate moves, but now the game becomes more and more positional play like as checkers.

I think one solution would be to have space for two ways to play.