Steel Division: Normandy 44

Steel Division: Normandy 44

Storm in the West'44
16th LFD Nerf : Why ???
First of all, please note that I’m a BIG FAN and I LOVE your mod and I’m playing it since the very first release and can’t play Vanilla anymore as I’m so addict to your job. Saying that, I’m wondering why have you nerfed so much the 16th LFD as you did ?
This Div was really fun to play for 2 main reasons as it strong points was :

- Strong dual AA/AT capability with many 88 cards available at all phase with many slots
- Strong air bombing capability starting phase B with many airplane slots

Along to this all other part of the div was weak :

- Weak infantry with low moral and penality
- Weak tank force with basic Stug version (always loosed 3 Stug to destroy a simple Sherman 75 as their aiming capability was very low)
- Static artillery with limited range (easy to destroy by arty counter fire)
- No really efficient support/recon units

I played this div during hundred of hours and for me it has never been OP ! The best way to counter it’s 2 strong points was to destroy the high visible and none mobile 88 units (easy to spot and to see on minimap) by direct artillery fire. Believe me I always loosed ¾ of my deployed 88 by this mean during game. Then to counter it airplanes by massive fighter attack out of 88 range (on way back by example). Once the 16 FLD loosed their airplane and static 88, you was done with it.
Now what we have, you have reduced to 3 the plane slots, reduced bomber numbers and blocked heavy bombers cards to phase C and also removed nearly all 88 cards (4 left, similar to most of other div who get 88…), and also removed most of their Stug cards and tank slots… to be replaced by few Marder (that Luftwaffen Feld Div never historically get into their rooster by the way)… And adding few inf slots (still weakest inf of the game) and few more static arty cards…
Could you now explain me what are the strong point of this Div ? I see it as totally useless, the worst div of the game and not fun at all to play now. Would be happy to understand your idea behind a such nerf ?

Thank you !
Last edited by [Lufteaux]HansWerner; Jan 4, 2018 @ 3:02pm
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Showing 1-6 of 6 comments
MrCrisps  [developer] Jan 4, 2018 @ 9:12pm 
First of all, thank you for playing my mod since the first iteration and for bearing with us :)

Your explanation is well made and with sound points. I'll explain the idea behind this division and behind many others.

The version of the 16. Luftwaffe you played was the vanilla version. It is certainly adapted to the basic game, but not to the mod. I've played a PvP game against it and it was just impossible to counter as it fielded too many very powerful unit such as the bombers, too many planes (especially for germany in France 1944) and too many AA units.

The idea behind the divisions overhaul was firstly to adjust the availability of the different units to achieve a somewhat balanced gameplay, especially taking into account the huge impact, on the metagame, the changes in stats for the units have done. This was the first iteration of the overhaul and it was achieved at the end of June (the date is detailed in the mod description).

Since then, i've seen a huge number of players from the community requesting to make the divisions more accurate to their real order of battle (or OOB) and equipment. I've then tried to find as many documents and sources I could to try achieving that.
Now, as i've found and collected a huge amount of data about most of the divisions we have ingame and others that I maybe will add to the mod, I've begun to modify the divisions' composition to make them more authentic.
In that regard, I've yet modfied the 101st AB, the 6th AB, the 2nd Inf US, the 21. Pz, the 12. SS-Pz, the 2e DB (with some tweaks to make it unique), the 352. Inf, the 3. FJ, the 4th Armored, the 9th Pz, the 1st SSB and lastly, the 16. Luft. Feld-Div. All the others will follow in the next updates.

Believe me, I have some documents about the Feld-Div. stating their exact equipment per battalion, per company and per squad. Of course, I kept some of the unique units the devs made for them, but I tried to make it as authentic as possible without making it too strong nor weak.
Of course, some further testing (preferably in PvP games) is necessary to see how the changes fare against the other contestants of the mod.

But keep in mind that being a very crappy division IRL, it could not be a very powerful one in the game. Especially because apart from unfit to combat infantry and some light artillery, it lacked of everything. I found it rather surprising to learn that they had some Marders and StuGs !

In regards of its strong/weak points in the current version, here they are :

Strong Points :
* Recon infantry units that can be fielded for the same role as basic infantry (Füsilier).
* Huge amount of cheap infantry with a very acceptable equipment. Their transports can make them reach their destination much faster than any mechanized infantry (trucks).
* Huge amount of Off-map arties which greatly helps the infantry to hold against much powerful opponents. The planes with Off-map have a greater range for their arty strike.
* Huge amount of artillery. A lot are able to be used as AT guns as well. Place them well in addition of your AT units and they'll do wonders.
* Shorter phases, meaning that you'll unlock the equipment from the last phases much sooner than other divisions.
* Huge amount of AA units compared to other German divisions. Very powerful ones with dual capabilities against air and ground units.
* Dreadful planes if not correctly addressed by your enemy.
* Very strong synergy between the planes and the powerful AA units.

Weak points :
* Almost no veteran units apart from the leaders and some planes.
* Very tiny to no tank force to rely on against enemy armor.
* No armored transport so a very static division relying on defense and counter-attacking in the aftermath.
* Very easily demoralized infantry units, even more without a leader in the area.
* Very dependant on artillery units and Off-map. You're basically dead without them.
* No rocket artillery so you need to choose your targets correctly and make the shots count.
* Low amount of planes.

All in all, it's not a very easy to play division. It's not completely insane either but it needs some peculiar ways to play to manage the victory. Sure, you can be considered a vile camper by your opponents but hey, it's the Luft. Feld-div., one of the most useless for combat on ground of all the German forces ! Of course you need to defend to survive !

In conclusion, I would incite you to play it in a PvP game if you can and tell me what are your thought about it. Honestly, give it a real try and you'll see that this division is a lot more powerful than you seem to think.
Last edited by MrCrisps; Jan 4, 2018 @ 9:39pm
Great thank you for these detailed explanation. I also got strong knowledge about Luftwaffen Feld Division as I’m reenacting the 17th LFD in a French reenactor group since up to 5 years, so I have made lots of research and read a lot about these specific Luftwaffe ground units. My group is named “Les Lufteaux”, have a look on our website and Facebook if you are interesting :
https://www.leslufteaux.com/galerie-lufteaux/
https://www.facebook.com/leslufteaux/

From my long & deepest research, one of the bible about these divs is a book wrote by Antonio Munoz “Goring’s Grenadiers – The Luftwaffe Field Divisions 1942-1945” that describe in detail all Feld Div rooster and unit component, and as far as I know I never found any info about Marder III into any Feld Div, 16th included :
https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/1891227408/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And from this book here is the detail of the 16th LFD Panzerjäger abteilung :

https://www.amazon.fr/clouddrive/share/wpObFoqOW5MxC22yt9VfVgtgJWg3GHyJVRdhrWcRvSN?v=grid&ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

https://www.amazon.fr/clouddrive/share/F3Xkg68ywn2mnhHa3oM1gcZhtahCSC0jo8Jt4JbaUWa?v=grid&ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

As you can see only Pak 38 (50mm), Pak 97/38 (75mm), Pak 40 (75mm) and Stug III (K-40 L48) but no Marder III... BTW Stug III in Feld Div is a known fact, all had at least 4 of them on their rooster (could vary IRL), and 16th had at least 2 engaged in Normandy over 10 supposed to be attached to it. We have personally a copy of Stug III in our reenactor group to reenact this, had a look on our pics :).
So I’m highly interested where you found info about Marder III into 16th LFD ? I personally never read anything about this in any other books, archive or website about this div or any other feld div.

BTW note the 4 mobile Hotchkis 75mm Howitzers on the rooster, maybe here are what you think was Marder III ?

Also BTW the 16th LFD seems to had eight 88’s, maybe you could at least increase the in-game cards to this level, as 4 is really really low compare on how it’s easy to lose these AA guns by artillery (could be 4 in phase B and 4 in phase C).

And I never read anything about FT17 in this Div, do you have any info on this also ? If you haven’t any info, removed them please they aren’t historically accurate and useless for sure… Better to have few more 88s to balance this change :)

Hope I can help you to make this div more historically accurate in game if I can.

Saying that you are right that it’s historically accurate to make this div a bit weak and static one (all in-game balance preserved), as they have been IRL, weak and quickly destroyed divs, a waste of men on the own words of some German generals considering them as the weakest units of the Wehrmacht…
Last edited by [Lufteaux]HansWerner; Jan 6, 2018 @ 2:35am
SilvyMox Jan 5, 2018 @ 11:29am 
FT17 are probably from the attached sicherheits unit. All SD44 divisions include some attached corps level units (like schwere panzer units or allied tank battalions) available for them during campaign but not in strict divisional OOB.
MrCrisps  [developer] Jan 5, 2018 @ 3:25pm 
Salut confrère français ! Oui ça me fait bizarre de devoir correspondre en anglais avec un compatriote. Saletés d'anglo-saxons et leur langue invasive :3

Anyways, I have some documents stating some Pak40 SP which almost all the time means Marders but it doesn't detail which model. I've then taken the most used Marders, the 2 and 3 variants.

Hotchkiss howitzers? Don't see what you're referring to exactly.

About the StuGs, my data refers in the PzJäger Abt. that they can be either SP Pak 40 or StuGs. I chose to include both with the StuGs being the Bfw card.

I'd love to have more in depth details about those divisions ! Sadly your links are not working for me.

About the FT17 and some other units like the Flak Zwillige or the NAG trucks, I ptefered to keep them in the division as they're making this division more unique. Of course I have adjusted their availability.

Lastly, about the Flak 88, I prefered to limit them in numbers, as they're very deadly against tanks and have the ability to one shot any plane, at the longest range of all AA units.
Last edited by MrCrisps; Jan 5, 2018 @ 3:46pm
Top cool de savoir que tu es Français aussi :)

Here are new links with 16th LFD rooster detail, it should work now :
https://www.amazon.fr/clouddrive/share/wpObFoqOW5MxC22yt9VfVgtgJWg3GHyJVRdhrWcRvSN?v=grid&ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

https://www.amazon.fr/clouddrive/share/F3Xkg68ywn2mnhHa3oM1gcZhtahCSC0jo8Jt4JbaUWa?v=grid&ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

About the Hotchkis 75mm Howitzers, here is the unit a Pak40 mounted on a Hotchkis H39 tank, you should then switch the Marder III card for this one into the game :
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/marh39_2.jpg

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=1054

For the PzJäger Abt., I confirm you that Stug, Pak 38 & Pak 40 was for sure in service into this division, you should then add Pak 40 (not sure you kept them into your actual rooster), also
Pak 97/38 (75mm) has been used but not sure if this unit exist in game ? It's basically a French 75mm gun on a Pak 38 trailor :
http://www.materielsterrestres39-45.fr/fr/index.php/artillerie-antichars/37-allemagne-artillerie-antichars/611-7-5-cm-pak-97-38



Last edited by [Lufteaux]HansWerner; Jan 6, 2018 @ 2:47am
MrCrisps  [developer] Jan 8, 2018 @ 4:52am 
The issue with the PaK40 H38 SP is that it doesn't exist ingame. The PzH39 is the closer unit but it has a 105 and not the 75mm Pak40. Marders are closer in their role.

About the other possible changes, i'll think about it. The Pak 97/38 doesn't exist in the game.
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