German Battlecruiser Line - Predictions

With the recent news of a new upcoming premium ship - the Prinz Eitel Friedrich - it is probable that Wargaming may, at some point in the distant future, add in a full line of German Battlecruisers

In this "guide", I will offer my opinion as to what potential candidates there are for each tier, how the ship compares to its competitors, and what I think the overall "flavour" for the line will be.

Disclaimers and whatnot

For the record - I am not affiliated with Wargaming in any way. I do not have access to classified information, nor have I been spying on secret meetings or similar.

This is merely a prediction. It may be right, it may be wrong, or Wargaming may never add in a German Battlecruiser line.


As for my hours on Steam (or lack thereof), I have the non-Steam version of the game already, and I see no reason to get it working with Steam when what I currently have works just fine.


None of the images are my own. All were off a combination of Wikipedia, a few sites containing drawings and blueprints of ships, and random pictures off Google Images. I'd provide links, but it's currently 1am and I should have finished this guide a month ago without delaying it even longer.


Without further ado, on with the show.

A Brief History of German Battlecruisers

During the mid 1900's, Germany and Britain entered a naval arms race, building larger and more powerful ships than the other. Whilst much of these efforts were spent on the new Dreadnought Battleships, Battlecruisers also came to play in this at approximately the same time.


SMS Blücher, the last German Armoured Cruiser, could be argued to be the first German Battlecruiser. She was bigger, better armoured, better armed, and faster than any German Armoured Cruiser before her, and superior to any British Armoured Cruiser that had been built.
SMS Blücher

However, she had been designed to match the British Armoured Cruisers that were being built at the time, which the Germans expected would be armed with 6 or 8 9.2-inch (234mm) guns - 4 of which had been used on the Royal Navy's newest Armoured Cruiser - the Minotaur Class.

Hence, Blücher was armed with 12 21cm guns. These were mounted in 6 twin turrets in a similar arrangement to the Nassau-Class Battleship, both of which were approved funding at the same time in mid-1906.

Tragically (or hilariously, depending on who you talk to), one week later, the Germans obtained the actual details of the Royal Navy's newest warship. This new class of ship carried 8 guns - but these were 12-inch guns, like those carried on HMS Dreadnought. It made Blücher's 21cm guns look pathetic in comparison.

It was clear that this new class of ship - classified as a Battlecruiser - was superior in every way to Armoured Cruisers, hence Blücher was obsolete before she was even laid down (there were no funds to redesign the ship).
HMS Invincible

Hence, Germany's first Battlecruiser - SMS Von Der Tann - wasn't ordered until a year later. The Germans had a lot of catching up to do.
SMS Von Der Tann

In contrast to British Battlecruisers, those built by Germany did not follow the same design doctrine. Where the British ships sacrificed armour for speed (hence were not designed to fight in the line of battle), the German ships were. This meant they had much thicker armour than their counterparts, whilst usually being slightly slower with smaller-caliber main guns.

German Battlecruiser development continued all the way to the closing days of the First World War. Then, like Battlecruisers themselves, they all but died out, save for the occasional plan.

Many of the ships featured will hence have to have un-historical modifications (most notably in the AA department) in order to be competitive at their respective tiers.

If there are any more appropriate ships than the designs I've picked out, let me know.

But, without further ado:

Tier 3

Von Der Tann

As Germany's first Battlecruiser, Von Der Tann is a logical first place to look for the tier 3 spot. And, as it happens, it fits quite nicely at this spot.

For one thing, the guns are appropriate. She mounts a similar main battery to Nassau, using the same 28cm L/45 guns, and she has 8 of them in 4 twin turrets. However, unlike Nassau, she mounts her guns en echelon like Kaiser at tier 4, so she is capable of firing a full 8-gun broadside within certain angles. However, like Kaiser, the angle of fire for the two amidships turrets will likely be very poor.


However, the rest of the ship is mostly good news. She has a very strong secondary battery of 10 15cm and 16 8.8cm guns - which is 2 15cm guns less than on the Nassau - very good for tier 3. But, being a very early Battlecruiser, she has no anti-aircraft battery whatsoever. As with all tier 3 BB's, she will probably receive a "B-Hull" upgrade with some AA guns, but nowhere near enough to deter any carrier from attacking you.

As for armour, Von Der Tann has a maximum of 250mm of belt armour - identical to that of Turenne! And, at a design load of 19,370 tonnes, she has comparable displacement to the other tier 3 capital ships, but is longer at 171.7 metres in length - something likely to affect her surface detection range.

Top speed, though, is where Von Der Tann is a cut above. Being a Battlecruiser, she was designed to have a top speed of 24.8 knots - already nearly 4 knots faster than her counterparts. But, during sea trials, she hit a top speed of 27.75 knots, making her the fastest capital ship of her era (faster than any British Battlecruiser up to that point)

I think giving Von Der Tann her historical top spped would possibly make her overpowered. She has decent guns (with sub-par firing arcs), great secondaries, battleship-level armour and good top speed already. But, she is the only acceptable choice at tier 3, as Blücher simply does not have the firepower to challenge enemy capital ships.

Tier 4

Moltke Class

Seydlitz

Germany's next 2 Battlecruisers - the Moltke Class (her sister ship was transferred to the Ottoman Navy), and SMS Seydlitz - are both possible contenders for the Tier 4 spot. Both ships are very similar to each other, and both would compare well with other Tier 4 capital ships.

Both retain the same gun caliber - 28cm - as Von Der Tann at Tier 3, but have improved 50-caliber length versions of the gun. Also, each gets an extra gun turret aft, for a 10-gun broadside in a similar gun configuration to Kaiser, also at Tier 4.


As with German Battleships, both Battlecruisers get a powerful secondary battery, with both ships having 12 15cm guns and 12 8.8cm guns,

The main difference between the two ships is size and armour. Moltke weighs in at 22,979 tonnes - a bit on the light side - whereas Seydlitz displaces 24,988 tonnes. Seydlitz also has a thicker belt, at 300mm, although Moltke's belt armour of 280mm is still very respectable for her tier.

Also, Seydlitz is longer at 200.6 metres in length, which would give her a greater surface detection range than Moltke which is 'only' 186.6 metres long. Seydlitz is also slightly slower at 28.1 knots acheived during trials (she was designed to hit a top speed of 26.5 knots), compared to Moltke's 28.4 (whereas she was only designed to make 25.5 knots). Both are still faster than any current Capital Ship at Tier 4, if we take the maximum speed achieved.

I anticipate that, because both are appropriate for this tier, that we will see one as a tech-tree ship, and one as a premium.

Tier 5

Derfflinger Class

An incremental improvement over Seydlitz, the three ships of the Derfflinger Class are appropriate for the Tier 5 spot. With three ships completed, this marked the largest class of German Battlecruisers numerically to see service. They also moved away from the 28cm guns of her predecessors, and the switch to 30.5cm (12-inch) main guns, arranged with all guns on the centreline.


All three ships also retained the same secondary battery as the ships before them - 12 15cm guns and 12 8.8cm guns, though these numbers changed over time. As you can see, however, the number of main guns does decrease from ten to eight, though the highly improved firing arcs more than makes up for this loss. At her tier, then, she has one fewer turret than König, but being a Battlecruiser she is faster.

However, she isn't faster by that much. Of the three ships, Derfflinger only made 25.5 knots, Lützow made 26.4, and Hindenburg (built to a slighly modified design) made 26.6 knots. Whilst this is still fast, compared to smilar Battlecruisers (i.e. Kongō), it's not ideal.

However, being German she can rely on her armour more than her speed. Again, all ships had a 300mm belt, and weighed approximately 26,600 tonnes. Derfflinger and Lützow were 210.4 metres long, with Hindenberg slightly longer at 212.8 metres - so none of them are exactly stealthy.

At her tier, Derfflinger will probably not exactly be amazing, unfortunately. You are essentially a König that sacrifices some armour and firepower for a top speed boost. But still, with battleship-level belt armour and a top speed better than most of the battleships, she will still be versatile in battle.

Tier 6

Mackensen Class

Here is, unfortunately, where we start getting into the realms of possibility. Whilst four of the planned seven ships were laid down and three of these were eventually launched, none of them were completed and all were broken up for scrap

Below, we see Prinz Eitel Friedrich (one of the three ships launched) to the left of a Bayern-Class ship, Württemberg, that was also not completed. Notice how much longer the Battlecruiser is, and how much more streamlined it is.


Again, the Mackensen Class marks another change of gun caliber - from 30.5cm to 35cm, 45-caliber main guns, but the ship retains the same layout for the main armament. However, the secondary guns are different, with an increase to 14 15cm guns, but reduction to 8 8.8cm guns, which also doubled as the anti-aircraft battery. But, as with the Bayern, there would likely be far more AA guns than just this on different hull versions.

As with her predecessors, she maintains a strong, 300mm armoured belt, and the 223-metre long ship would have weighed in at 31,000 tonnes. Thankfully, her top speed would have been a more respectable 28 knots, though this isn't as impressive as it was at Tier 4.

Sadly, none of these ships were ever completed, so we have no idea of knowing what the actual top speed would have been. None of the seven ships planned were completed, largely due to the prioritisation of building U-Boats later in the war, and only four were even laid down (as Mackensen-Class Battlecruisers). The other three were re-designed as the "Ersatz Yorck" Class, of which only one was ever laid down. Speaking of which...

Tier 7

Ersatz Yorck Class

Here, of course, we come to a bit of an issue. "Ersatz" in German means "Replacement", so in other words, the three ships of the Ersatz Yorck Class were to replace the ships of their name (which had all been lost). These three ships were named Ersatz Yorck, Ersatz Gneisenau, and Ersatz Scharnhorst. As you may have noticed, all three names are currently in use for other German ships - all of which are at Tier 7.

However, these ships were not necessarily, historically, to be named the same as their "Ersatz" names. For instance, Prinz Eitel Friedrich was ordered as Ersatz Freya (Freya was an old protected cruiser).

However, it may be confusing to have the Ersatz Yorck Class referred to as anything else other than "Yorck" in-game. Equally so, however, it would be confusing for players to suddenly see a "Yorck" and find it's a big angry Battlecruiser rather than a big angry Heavy Cruiser. Who knows what Wargaming will end up calling this thing, as it's the logical choice for Tier 7. But, I will be referring to it as the Ersatz Yorck


Being essentially enlarged versions of the Mackensen, the Ersatz Yorck is larger and heavier at 33,500 tonnes, and 227.8 metres in length. The belt armour remains the same at 300mm, but top speed drops to 27.3 knots - again, she is more like a fast Battleship.

Disappointingly, her secondary battery decreases to just 12 15cm and 8 8.8cm guns, though this is still good for her tier. However, the main battery increases in caliber again to 8 38cm guns.

Again, no AA guns were planned aside from the 88mm FlaK guns. However, they will doubtless be added in their dozens with hull upgrades.

Tier 8

Tier 8 is where, unfortunately, we come to a bit of a problem.

You see, there is a perfect Tier 8 ship that existed in blueprints.

O Class Battlecruiser (Premium Ship)

You may be thinking, "Well, what's the problem, then? If it would fit at Tier 8, put it at Tier 8!"

But, if we look at the statistics, you'll hopefully see why she could only be added as a Premium Ship


The O Class was designed as part of Plan Z (which also included the H-Class Battleships, which we have versions of in-game as Friedrich der Große and Großer Kurfürst - neither are truly historical, but whatever.

They were planned to be fitted with the same 38cm C/34 main guns fitted to Bismarck, but in 3 twin turrets rather than 4. They were also planned to incorporate 6 15cm and 8 10.5cm guns as secondaries, and 8 3.7cm and 20 2cm guns for AA defense, as well as the 10.5cm guns being dual purpose. In addition, she was planned to mount 6 533mm torpedo tubes, with a triple launcher on each side.

The ship was to be 256 metres in length, and displace 35,400 tonnes, and steam at a very fast 35 knots. However, to achieve this, the belt armour was only 190mm.

Just think about that. This ship has thinner belt armour than the Tier 3 ship. She is a very un-German Battlecruiser. She does not, in short, fit the line whatsoever.


Which is a real shame, because it makes the Tier 8 choice rather complex.

Plan 1 - Move Gneisenau

The question of "Are Gneisenau and Scharnhorst Battleships or Battlecruisers?" is a good question, but for another time.

The current Gneisenau - with it's 6 38cm guns - compares quite favourably with the O Class, being slower but far better armoured with a 350mm belt. At Tier 8, it would probably need a few buffs to be more competitive, such as an increase in HP Pool, faster rate of fire, and, of course, 32mm of bow armour.


This would, of course, necessitate a new Tier 7 Battleship. This would need to either have reduced firepower over the Bismarck, or increased firepower over the Bayern

2 Battleships fit the bill quite nicely:

L20e α Class

This hefty, 238-metre long, 43,800 ton, 26-knot monster was designed to be the successor to the Bayern. It retained the 8-gun main battery arrangement, but increased the caliber to 42cm. Belt armour was the same at 350mm

There are several problems with this design. The first is the caliber change - from 38cm at Tier 6, to 42cm at Tier 7, then back to 38cm at Tier 8. This is something that tends to be avoided at all costs - including having a massively nerfed Cleveland as the Tier 6 ship because it only has 152mm main guns.

I don't forsee any major problems with such high-caliber guns at Tier 7. 42cm guns can overmatch 29mm armour plates whereas 40.6cm guns can only overmatch 28mm plates, and to the best of my knowledge there aren't any 29mm armour plates in the game. But, these can overmatch the 27mm bow armour of many Tier 8 Cruisers, whereas Bismarck's gun's can't.

L21 a

One of the many plans for a post-Jutland Battleship - of which the L20e α was the final design - 1 design featured 10 38cm guns - an increase of 2 guns over Bayern. With all guns superfiring, this 42,000-ton, 235-metre long battleship is highly similar to the L20e α, although some details about it are unknown - including the top speed and belt armour.

Of course, since the Bismarck has more modern 38cm guns with a faster reload, the change from 10 guns back to 8 probably won't be that noticeable. The current tech tree already has a similar drop (8 guns on Bayern to 6 on Gneisenau).

However, this plan was only part of the process of developing a replacement for Bayern, which yielded the L20e α design. So, it doesn't make sense to add it.


Since both are problematic:

Plan 2 - Introduce a new ship

A few ships I've found fit the bill for a Tier 8 German Battlecruiser, although both are WWI-era designs. All need to be larger than the Ersatz Yorck, and better in some way

L 27/L 28

L 27
L 28

As you can see, these very similar battleships drop to only 6 main guns in 3 turrets, with 2 aft turrets much like the Myogi. But, these guns are 42cm guns. Both ships are similar in other design aspects, too, sharing a 350mm belt, displace approximately 45,000 tonnes, and hit 28-29 knots.

BUT, this is actually slower than the Bismarck. Other than the caliber increase, there would be no reason to play this ship over a Bismarck or Tirpitz.

GK 10

The "Großer Kreuzer 10" design was a 32-knot, 44,000 ton monster design. It would have mounted a uniform secondary battery of 16 15cm guns, and 8 main guns in 4 twin turrets.

Sources disagree on the caliber of the guns - whether these are 38cm or 42cm guns. Apparently, going off the scale of the drawing itself reveals these are 38cm guns, so I'm inclined to believe that. As for the rest of the ship, it had the standard 300mm of belt armour, and was itself 270m long.

I honestly think this final choice, with the 38cm guns, is the most suitable ship. It is faster and more durable than Ersatz Yorck, and boasts a significant increase in secondary battery firepower.

Tier 9

GK 4542

Sadly, this is about the best I'm going to get of this ship. But I'm guessing you all know vaguely what a Battlecruiser looks like by now.

Thankfully, there is only one real option I've found for Tier 9 - the Grosskampfschiffe (Large Combat Ship) 4542. The "45" indicated the weight in thousands of tonnes, the "4" indicated the number of turrets, and "2" the serial number of that design.

Hence, GK4542 weighed in at 45,000 tonnes, as well as being 240 metres long with a 30-knot top speed and 300mm belt armour (identical to that of F. Der Große). With 8 42cm guns, the two ships would play very, very similarly, although the GK would probably be more maneuverable at the cost of reduced HP and secondary armament.

At this point, the differences are not too significant between ships

Tier 10

GK 5041

Again, I lack any better pictures of this ship.

Again, there was only one appropriate choice for the tier. This 50,000 ton monster would have been 270 metres in length, have 300mm belt armour, a 31 knot top speed, and the same main armament as the Tier 9.

However, just as Wargaming did with the Großer Kurfürst, they would probably bend reality again in order to install 4 triple 42cm gun turrets. If so, this is the perfect platform for them, being essentially the penultimate German Battlecruiser design of WWI (no post-war project even got close), where ship designers all got a little bit silly.

Potential names for new ships

I think that some of the new German Battlecruisers, if built, would have potentially been named the same as the Armoured Cruisers they replaced.

Here are some I found (minus the ones that have ships in-game with the same name):

Blücher
Prinz Adalbert
Friedrich Carl
Prinz Heinrich
Fürst Bismarck

Of these, only the last is not likely. The final Mackensen Class ship was to be named Fürst Bismarck.

SMS Fürst Bismarck

Predicted playstyle

As I've mentioned many times throughout, these ships are less like "pure" Battlecruisers (i.e. British, Japanese etc.), and more like fast Battleships. By the final 2-3 tiers, the difference is practically un-noticeable between the Battleships and Battlecruisers.

Because of their tough armour and powerful secondaries, these ships will make good brawling ships, much like their Battleship cousins. They will, unfortunately, probably inherit at least some of the German Battleships' main gun inaccuracy.

They will probably also get Hydroacoustic Search at high tiers. Maybe, in order to distinguish themselves, they could get Hydro at Tiers 6 and 7 as well. It would certainly encourage players to get in close when using them, and focus on enhancing your already-powerful secondary armament.

If so, their Hydro will probably be better than that of the BB's, since they have considerably more HP at Tiers 9 and 10.


Overall, these ships (aside from the O Class) will probably be the most "noob-friendly" battlecruisers, thanks to their battleship-like armour which means citadel penetrations from other capital ships will be less likely (though not impossible). Alongside a powerful secondary battery and access to Hydroacoustic Search, these ships are designed to get in close to the enemy, and deal with then with ruthless efficiency.

But, these ships are not invincible. These are slow Battlecruisers that struggle to flee from opponents, and they tend to be inaccurate at longer ranges. You will need to pick which fights you get into in advance, and always maintain situational awareness, as you are one wrong move away from disaster.


At least, that's the theory. And we all know how theory works in practice.


Anyway, thanks for being bothered to read this far. I have a whole bunch of these planned - whether I get around to doing the research and/or writing it is another matter. I've been working on this project on and off for several months. I still don't quite know why.


Good luck and fair seas, Captain!

[Glitchrr36]

Greetings from the future, came across this looking into one of the designs mentioned (L20e alpha), it's nuts how close you got to what they actually ended up doing.

[PhoenixWing101]

@Ryuu I suppose so, but I don't want it to seem like self-promotion in any way.
I'm perfectly fine with it as it is.

[Ryuu]

Still you coul& do a post linking this guide :)

[PhoenixWing101]

@Ryuu that's pretty much why it's formatted as such.

Also, this might be too big for a forum post, and would probably get buried quite easily when there's many different aspects of it that could be discussed

[Ryuu]

@|rG| No1_lik3s_m3
You're free to make a guide on any topic as long as it is related with the game :)
On webforum there are speculations about German CV line for example.

Formatting it as a guide instead of Steam forum topic allows to embed images, which is good for material. Then the author can link to this guide in a forum post for discussion. The best of both worlds really!

[♡Mikey♡]

Can i make predictions about the weather and call it a guide too?