[OUTDATED] Stoicism & Shotguns: King of the Meta Build (Loud)

DISCLAIMER: this guide is from an era past, but since it is still a reflection of the current meta I thought I'd clean up the writing in it. You may find some relevant information for your build, but be aware that the part covering Specialized Killing isn't relevant anymore. Don't run silencers. See the end of the Controller variation section for the new Hybrid build, it's a straight upgrade.

Come, step forward and climb the hill of the meta with me. Come, watch how small those ants are from up here. Come, see how easy it can be.

PAYDAY 2's primary goal would be the completion of heists, right? Cops are here to hinder you. So get rid of them. We'll do so using what I consider to be - by far - the most powerful build I've ever played. This build is not oriented towards cooperation (okay buddy calm down, THERE IS INSPIRE) but towards your own survival. You're going to be running around like you're oblivious to pain, staggering cops left and right, drilling them with shotgun pellets and flexing on everything.

Pros:

• High DPS;
  
• High mobility;
  
• High survivability if handled well;
  
• ...Alcoholism?

Cons:

• Hard to survive once on low health;
  
• Requires good timing and knowledge of the game mechanics;
  
• Tight on skill points (Infamy 3 is needed).

The guide has been updated to match the new changes introduced in update 173. Again, see the Controller section for the Hybrid variation.

Introduction

In PAYDAY 2, shotguns have always been of high interest to those who were looking to create builds with high DPS. Now, with the introduction of the Brother Grimms, the Izhma has a new friend to compete with. Sorry, not sorry, but this build is pure meta as of writing this.

Shotguns provide great and constant firepower. They are also quite reliable because of being ever-so-easy to use and easy to sustain. Best of all? You don't need good aim. You could play blindfolded. Don't let their small base damage fool you!

Downloadable Content

Unfortunately for us, PAYDAY 2 is full of DLC and this build utilizes some. If you don't have the Ultimate Edition, here's what you'll need.

Required DLC

http://store.steampowered.com/app/311050/PAYDAY_2_Gage_Shotgun_Pack/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/267380/PAYDAY_2_Gage_Weapon_Pack_01/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/548420/PAYDAY_2_Gage_Spec_Ops_Pack/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/259381/PAYDAY_2_Gage_Mod_Courier/
Note that the above are for weapon modifications. They include important modifications such as HE Rounds or AP Slugs as well as major concealment modifications for most weapons. That said, the Brother Grimms don't need any DLC to attain their best potential.

Optional DLC

http://store.steampowered.com/app/422400/PAYDAY_2_The_Point_Break_Heists/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/374300/PAYDAY_2_The_Golden_Grin_Casino_Heist/
Only for the Ice Pick and the Buzzer.

Infamy

In order to make this work and be cost-effective, you will need to have unlocked a few infamy levels prior. For newer players, Infamy points are gained each Infamy level and can be allocated to sets that grant Infamy boosts. Four of these boosts provide skill tree costs reductions (the top, right, bottom and left ones from the middle one).

More information here.[payday.wikia.com]

Sets

These are the sets you will need for this build:

The sets are in order of importance of unlocking. The last one, The Assassin Set, is optional.

Build & Mechanics

Unlike its predecessor, PAYDAY 2 allows for fast-paced sprinting action with the right setup. Being fast is key to survival on Death Sentence when moving from point A to B, and in this build we'll be doing just that - all the time. No setting up camp here, champ. The global idea is to stagger and kill enemies faster than they can shoot at you, to take cover quickly whenever you're in too much danger, then jump right back in action just a few seconds later. You're going to need to have good spatial awareness and to know map layouts fairly well.
Shotguns will solve the lack of accuracy resulting from all this movement. They don't require much aiming to be effective other than pointing your mouse cursor somewhere near enemy heads. Go, run 'n' gun!

Now, ZEAL units don't have any bullet drop off and deal absurd amounts of damage. That's a problem that can only be partially solved by moving and knowing maps, so the rest of the job will be up to perk decks. You have multiple ways to go about this (check the Alternatives section at the end of the guide), but my main focus is on Stoic. Like Anarchist, Grinder or even Ex-President, Stoic is focused on sustaining offense. You're at full health? Shoot a cop so he won't shoot you. Half health? Shoot a cop so you regenerate your life. You're on low health? Shoot a cop to get back on your feet, jesus. It's easy, kill to live... get free alcohol. Look, killing fills up your flask, I don't know, don't ask me how. Magic?

Stoic & Playstyle

The Perk deck

Unlike other perk decks oriented towards killing, Stoic doesn't really make you regenerate any life. Instead, you only take 25% direct damage and the remaining 75% is converted to health that you lose over time (Damage over Time, DoT for convenience). The DoT can then be cancelled by using your flask. If you don't want to drink, the damage will automatically negate itself after not taking ANY damage for 4 seconds.

More Information on Stoic[payday.wikia.com]

Playstyle

Now, onto the real stuff. With Stoic's damage reduction and DoT-cancelling, you can in fact regenerate health by small percentages by negating the DoT right after taking damage if the latter is high enough. That's right, you can regenerate health with Stoic. However, I insist, this will only work with sudden bursts of damage such as rifle volleys or shotgun blast from enemies. Make sure you don't get damaged for "small" amounts in regular intervals, or you will be slowly but surely losing health.
Funnily enough, this is why this build works best on Death Sentence and is decreasingly effective the lower you go in difficulty.

With 85% direct damage reduction (Stoic's 75%+10% from Underdog aced; see the Skill Tree - Enforcer section), you can actually facetank ZEAL Dozers and get it all back after negating the damage, and more.
Your margin of cockiness will be at about 50% health. If you're under that, start being careful. If you're at 100%, go crazy and accept the love from cops with open arms and open fire.
Of course, you will need the full perk deck to make this possible.

Equipment

Armor

As we want the highest possible concealment with maximum armor-to-life conversion, we'll be using the Lightweight Ballistic Vest (LBV). We also get to keep fairly high mobility using this armor.

Melee Weapons

The Ice Pick is easily concealed and has high melee damage. Coupled with Bloodthrist (see the Skill Tree - Fugitive section), this thing mines through your ennemies as if they were not ice, but snow.


Ever dreamt of tasing your ennemies by punching them in the face, like the sneaky bast*rd you are? The Electrical Brass Knuckles do just that, staggering your ennemies on hit. These will allow for easier cop dominations, though they can't really kill unless you try (too) hard.


The adequately-named Buzzer is exclusively here to make your foes shiver at its sight, and then some more afterwards. A taste of their own medicine. It has a slower charge time than the Electrical Brass Knuckles, but is a viable alternative for the same purpose.

Throwable Beverage

Because you're actually a very poor stoicist, whisky helps you face what does not depend on you. Alcohol solves problems, kids.

Deployables

Medicine always helps. It cannot fix your skill, but it will fix your health and reset how many times you can go down. Use Doctor Bags if you are used to this build's playstyle (see the Skill Tree - Mastermind section).


Conversely, you can use First Aid Kits while you learn the playstyle induced by running and gunning (see the Skill Tree - Mastermind section).

Weapons

In case you didn't quite get it yet, we'll be using shotguns here. Because Overkill decided each pellet would deal the full amount of damage and that the number of pellets would increase the more spread a weapon has, shotguns are extremely powerful in this game. They're my number one choice for damage, mobility and even accuracy. Heck, you can also turn shotguns into snipers! The Judge, when modded right, can easily take out foes at long range whilst keeping the power of a shotgun in close quarter combat.

Primary weapons

18 damage when stock... Yikes. Oh wait, Overkill did their math right this time. These modified bullpup Izhmas deal insane amounts of damage, only for a mouse click and some ammo! Admittedly, they're not very stable. But who cares when everything is dead?

You'll want to be modifying yours with the following:

Ammunition	000 Buckshot
Barrel EXT	Silent Killer Suppressor
Foregrip	Little Brother Foregrip

Boosts, customs and gadgets are up to your choice; I recommend using a concealment/stability boost, leaving the default fire mod to be able to switch, though Auto Fire can't hurt anyone (except thousands of cops). Use a Compact Laser Module in order not to mess up the concealment.

More information on the Brother Grimms 12G[payday.wikia.com]


The Izhma 12G has been popular for shotgun users since it was introduced to the game a few years ago, and it still continues to shine. While it is a tad less powerful than the Brother Grimms, it manages to overcome that weakness through better ammo efficiency, better ammo pick-up and more stability.

You'll want to be modifying yours with the following:

Ammunition	000 Buckshot
Barrel	Short Barrel
Barrel EXT	Silent Killer Suppressor
Foregrip	Hollow Handle
Grip	AK Rubber Grip
Stock	Skeletal Stock

Remember that you want the most concealment possible and that sights aren't very useful for your primary anyway, as you'll be using it for close-range fighting.

More information on the Izhma 12G[payday.wikia.com]

Stats:
(Magazine values with Close By aced are not shown. This skill greatly improve both weapons' viability. See the Skill Tree - Enforcer section.)

Secondary weapons

The Judge is its name. It's also the Jury and the Executioner, truth be told. With HE rounds, AP slugs or even Flechettes - you name it, this thing will obliterate anything that can't be killed using your primary. Snipers? Off to hell. Shields? They didn't have enough protection. Dozer plates? What's that supposed to be; armor? Pathetic.

You'll want to be modifying yours with the following:

Ammunition	HE Rounds
Barrel EXT	Silent Killer Suppressor

Boosts, gadgets and sights are up to you. Keep high concealment. I recommend using the Custom Reinforced Frame for free luminescent sights, and simply for the fact that it looks good. HE rounds are the best choice for ammo supply. They can be quite devastating with Swan Song, can easily stagger ennemies (including Shields) and destroy Dozer plates alarmingly quick. AP Slugs are also a really solid option. They greatly improve the accuracy of the weapon and are a great choice for taking out Shields and Dozers plates, but they excel at taking out Snipers from afar.

More information on The Judge[payday.wikia.com]


The Locomotive 12G is a sawn-off version of the Reinfeld 880, so it packs a serious punch. With a lot of customization available for this mean-looking puppy, you won't run out of possibilites, however concealing it can be hard, and only AP Slugs can make the most out of it.

You'll want to be modifying yours with the following:

Ammunition	AP Slug
Barrel EXT	Silent Killer Suppressor
Grip	Straight Grip
Magazine	Extended Magazine
Stock	Tactical Shorty Stock

While a lot of other modifications could be tempting, these will sap your concealment. Aside from that, you may do whatever you feel enclined to in order to boost things up a bit, such as using weapon boosts or concealed lasers.

More information on the Locomotive 12G[payday.wikia.com]


Stats (The Judge with HE Rounds; Locomotive 12G with AP Slugs):


Usually, I run the Brother Grimms and The Judge with AP Slugs. I prefer having a baby sniper as my secondary.

Skill Tree

Mastermind

In Mastermind, we'll be taking Inspire in order to compell annoying teammates that die all the time. Just kidding, it's sort of a no-brainer.
If you don't like it you can ditch it and spend your points somewhere else.

Depending on what you choose to use, you can either ace Combat Doctor (and equip yourself with doctor bags) or Uppers (and equip first aid kits). I recommend going for Uppers if it's your first time trying out this build while you get used to it. Once you feel confident enough with your ability to survive, switch over to doctor bags, it's always better from a team perspective.

Note: If you're using doctor bags and are on very low health (because of having gotten downed) on a comfortable game that you know won't be too dangerous, just use a charge of your doctor bag. It's often better to be able to survive for a long time and not consume any more doctor bag charge than getting downed another time because of the 10% you get once revived (unless the person that revived you had Combat Medic aced for an additional 30% life on revive). Additionally, whenever you're at a 2nd down, remember that you're in a very uncomfortable position on OD. Using doctor bags the same way as first aid kits isn't a bad trade, you'll get 8 charges in total and you will be able to help others a bit with their downs if they're in need.

Can't play with the low stability of shotguns? Grab some skills in the Sharpshooter sub-tree if needed. You might want to check the Technician skill tree for better alternatives though.

Enforcer

Enforcer will provide us with the necessary skills to make it all work in the Shotgunner sub-tree. You'll be reaching up to Overkill which gives us a most welcome 75% increase in damage, along with Close By aced which is always nice as it greatly improves your magazine ammo pool for automatic shotguns. Last but not least, don't forget to ace Underdog in order to get +10% damage reduction when three or more ennemies are within 18 meters of where you stand. This 10% will play a huge part in regenerating your health with Stoic.
Far away and Shotgun Impact are just here to make things easier on long distance shots, which can be very useful depending on the map you're playing on.

While taking armor skills in the Tank sub-tree is not an absolute necessity, it is one of the main reasons this build has the survivability it has and is highly recommended. Because Stoic converts your life to armor, boosting your armor value is a great thing. Get the 30% armor increase from Iron Man, grab Resilience and ace Die Hard on the way in order to get more armor to multiply with Iron Man as well as a no-brainer flash time reduction. Transporter is a nice bonus, but really only there to get Iron Man with the least points possible, as acing it doesn't grant anything since all of our armor is converted to life.

If you feel unsecure, you could grab Scavenger in the Ammo Specialist sub-tree for one point, but it's not really needed as you already have great ammo sustain with shotguns if managed properly.

Technician

I personally don't find much use in the Technician tree for this build, but if you fancy having more stability, consider getting Steady Grip aced in the Oppressor sub-tree for just 3 points.
You could also go for Jack of All Trades if you need more deployables, as well as Drill Expert and Drill Sawgeant aced in case you need more drilling speed and efficiency, though you'll have to sacrifice some points here and there to get that, which this build isn't too friendly with if you want to make it work.

Ghost

The Ghost tree is one of our main sources of DPS along with the Shotgunner sub-tree. Having critical hits coupled with the 75% damage increase from Overkill will be absolutely devastating.
Akimbos shoot twice per click, double the chance to crit!
Proceed to get Low Blow. You could also ace it instead of acing Inner Pockets and Optical Illusions, allowing for higher customization of your weapons with up to 25 concealment maximum (to fully benefit from the skill). Here's a table fot crit chance depending on your detection risk[payday.wikia.com].

Now all we need is to get the maximum critcal strike chance, so ace Optical Illusions and Inner Pockets (we're using the LBV).
Duck and Cover and Parkour are just basic skills to always have. Acing Parkour can be worth it as this build is meant to be used in a fast-paced and nervous way, which this skill only improves - reloading while sprinting is great.

Fugitive

Nothing too crazy here, just usual stuff to help with DS, such as Nine Lives to boost your survivability, but mainly to get Swan Song or Feign Death with the least points possible. I personnaly like to use Swan Song even if it recently got nerfed shy of 3s (HE round zone bombing is still amazing). You could also go for Feign Death if you aren't scared of RNG, but remember that in those 6 seconds of Swan Song you can use Inspire on someone instead of handing it to your luck.

Martial Arts and Bloodthirst are far from needed - they're really just a personal preference. Because I use the Ice Pick, meleeing and one shotting a cop that's too close to you without spending a bullet (you could be reloading, hence the use of it) is quite useful when you're running around all over the place like Speedy Gonzales. The cop staggering part is done with your primary weapon, not by a taser of any sort in this case.
You could argue that tasing the ennemy would give you time to reload. I prefer the idea of the cop being no more than of him having to wait to mess me up.

You could ace Akimbo in the Gunslinger sub-tree for more ammo if you're running the Grimms.

For more information on the skill tree and its associated skills, click here[payday.wikia.com].

Final Stats

If you've followed the build thoroughly, you should be getting these statistics (or something along those lines):

Controller Variation

This is an addition to the original guide, and an improvement.

In case you feel more health is needed to cope up with of all of the alcohol you absorb, you could also make use of Partners In Crime's 30% health increase when aced. This option allows you to have a great total of 364 health (with the LBV, you get 280 health as base, which gives us 364 health when increased by 30%) instead of 321 with the aforementioned setup.

Mastermind

This time around, you'll be specializing in the Controller sub-tree. Your only goal is to get Partners In Crime aced for that sweet increase in base life when having a converted cop on your side. That goes through activating your converting ability by getting Joker, which you then ace to make converting cops faster and give them some use by allowing them to deal more damage. Proceed to ace Confident to double the fun and get another converted cop to, uhhh... Do things with.

Enforcer

In the Enforcer tree, simply keep Resilience aced to make sure flashbangs are less of a hassle.

Other trees are left untouched.

Two-Piece Suit?

Because you don't have armor skills anymore, using the LBV might not seem like the best choice anymore. Then should you use the Two-Piece Suit (TPS for conveniance)? Nah, fam. Not even close. While this allows you to un-ace Inner Pockets in the Artful Dodger sub-tree to free 4 skill points, using the TPS gives you a total of 325 health with the temporary increase of the TPS' 250 base armor by 30%. Four more health points than the LBV/Iron Man/Die Hard setup (321) aren't worth it, the latter is a constant boost.

You would get a lot more base health by using other armors, however that means lowering your concealment, which equals to dealing less damage and having less mobility in this case.

Pros and Cons of this setup

Both setup are as good as each other. If it wasn't for Overkill's poor coding, pathing and overall handling of converted cops, using the Controller version would make the experience a lot smoother and less tedious.
That said, if you're new to this build, I recommend you use the LBV Controller version.

Pros:

• More health (~ +13.5% from the LBV Tank);
  
• Converts can take the agro;
  
• Converts are bullet sponges.

Cons:

• Temporary health increase;
  
• Converted cops are not granted, it might take out a large pool of health to get cops dominated;
  
• In the event they die, you'll have to replace them;
  
• They get stuck extremely often because of the way they are handled in this game, or because of some map designs (unavoidable on Brooklyn 10-10), which will then make them incredibly useless;

Congregated Statistics

Setup	Base Health¹	Temporary Health²	Added Health³	Added Health (Total)⁴
LBV Tank	321	321	41	71
LBV Controller	280	364	84	114
TPS Controller	250	325	75	75

¹ Health value at the beginning of a heist.
² Health value if improved by temporary skills.
³ The amount of health added with skills over your armor.
⁴ The total amount of health added when compared to no armor and no skills active (Temporary Health - 250).

Note: these values could be further improved upon if a teammate is using Crew Chief.

READ!!! Hybrid Version

As of update 173, Specialized Killing got removed, meaning it frees up 9 precious points for us to use. By not taking Bloodthirst in the Fugitive tree (Brawler sub-tree) and swaping the Ice Pick for the Electrical Brass Knuckles or the Buzzer, we get the 11 points required to get Forced Friendship and Joker, then acing Partners In Crime. This allows us to make use of the armor increase from Iron Man and the converted cops' additionnal 30% health when having a converted ennemy on your side. The grand total is of 417 health, and that's the setup I use.

Alternatives

In case you don't feel too comfortable with Stoic, you still have a plethora of options to go for. Because this build is as much based on shotguns and sprinting as it is on its perk deck, changing the latter won't modify too much about it except the way of surviving you'll have to make use of.
Note: this only applies if you manage not to butcher other stuff to get the necessary skill points a specific perk deck might need to work properly.

Anarchist

Since we already have armor skills (I recommend you use LBV here aswell too, for bonus armor while keeping the concealment necessary for critical hits), Anarchist comes as a no-brainer.

In order to make it work better, you'll have to tweak the Tank sub-tree a bit: you want to have all of the skills available in this tree, with only Die Hard, Bullseye and Resilience aced. With that being said, because of the high damage you'll be taking on DS, Bullseye (even aced) isn't so good unless you use it properly.

Anarchist is a great option for those used to killing a lot of cops while keeping a fair balance between taking cover and running in the open. It requires a bit of experience, but is certainly viable on DS.

Grinder

Let me cut to the chase: Grinder won't work well on DS. This perk deck is more suited as an alternative to Stoic for lower difficulties starting from Death Wish. I would really love the perk deck to be slightly boosted again so it becomes more viable on the highest difficulty, but other than that, Grinder destroys on the lower ones. Highly recommended if you want something chill that does the work by itself and don't plan on doing DS with it.

Ditch all the armor skills and get Partners In Crime, Confident and Joker all aced (in the Controller sub-tree) to have a very helpful 30% health increase along with 2 bullet sponges. Oh sorry, I meant traitors. Uh wait, cops. Whatever.

In my opinion Grinder is the best option for DW and downwards.

Kingpin

Yeah, you read that right. Kingpin. It's quite an underrated perk deck, and most certainly not one that I use a lot; but if you really are focused on kills and play it well - aggressively yet knowing exactly what to do to get the most kills without taking too much damage - you'll manage pretty nicely. Either that, or you can just sit around and wait until you get your Kingpin Injector. In that case, don't bother with this build.

With all that being said, it is far from being the best choice and I advise you use it only if you really like this perk deck.

Rogue

Ah, crap, here we go again. I know, I know. Random Number Generation, known to most as RNG. It emulates luck. Do you want to give up your survivability to luck, though? Yes, actually. Unitary notions of luck are quite meaningless in this case.

Very basic mathematics (Bernoulli Distribution[en.wikipedia.org]) tell us that the more an indepedent trial is repeated, the more its average gets closer to the original probability of it happenning - in this case dodging a bullet with a 50% of it happenning. In intelligible words, you'll only take half that would have hit you. Now for those who are absolutely reluctant to logical thinking, just consider this: a lot of people use Rogue, and that's the reason to it.

Rogue can be improved upon. Removing all armor skills (they'll be useless, you'll be using the Two-Piece Suit for the maximum dodge chance possible) is your first step towards transforming into Neo.

With these new spares points, take Sneaky Bast*rd basic and ace Duck and Cover - if you play it right you should be sprinting a lot - in the Artful Dodger sub-tree. That's 70% chance to dodge with Duck and Cover aced when sprinting. With bot perks, you could even get an additional 5% chance to dodge, but doesn't even stop here.
Optical Illusions gives you 35% chance to not get targeted by ennemies, which stacks up with one of Rogue's Perk, Elusive, giving you an additional 15% chance to not get targeted by ennemies when close to allies, for a total of 50%. Now while this isn't as consistent and is quite useless in a party full of Rogue users, it's still a massive help.

Crook

“A great alternative to Rogue this perk deck would be” - tells us Yoda. He actually doesn't tell us a thing, that saggy old frog, but I'm just running out of ideas. In any case Crook is for those that are still sceptic about Rogue yet also dislike the other options. Christ. By boosting your armor values and using specifically ballistic vests, you get the best of both worlds: 136.5 armor (with the LBV) on top of the vanilla 230 health (for a total of 366.5) with up to 45% basic dodge chance.

Because this time you do have armor, the Tank sub-tree is a bit different: take all possible skills, then ace Bullseye, Die Hard and Resilience and get Iron Man. Using the LBV allows you to keep your concealment low and make full use of Sneaky Bast*rd and Low Blow to get the highest basic dodge chance and critical hit rate achievable.

With all temporary conditions mentionned in the Rogue section, the total potential of Crook is at 60% dodge rate, 35% chance to not get targeted and a 366.5 hybrid life/armor value. While the perk deck is very underrated by most, it is nonetheless a decent option.

Last Word

Summing it up

Run, kill, keep on doing so, use the flask if damaged, get your flask back quickly, take cover if needed, always reload to make sure you have full ammo to unload on your enemies. Keep your timing tight, keep your gameplay nervous.

Remember, to win DS, you'll have to know maps well enough to locate most cop spawns, create possible cover points by cleaning certain parts from cops in order to avoid other cops, be able to quickly identify enemies on your screen. In short, be experienced, be used to the game. Getting swarmed by cops is the last thing you want and surely the first cause of restarts for loud heists in this game - kill 'em all. Finally, know when to stick with your team and when to bail, but never stay alone for long.

Thanks

This took longer to write than I intended to, so thanks for reading! If you've got questions, don't hesitate to ask them down below.
Feel free to drop a like if you found this helpful, and maybe favorite it if you need to refer to it later, it tells me whether or not I've done a good job!

On a different note, if, like me, you don't like the Brother Grimms' iron sights, consider using this.[modworkshop.net]

[Eric$un]

i love this line "In case you feel more health is needed to cope up with of all of the alcohol you absorb, you could also make use of Partners In Crime's 30% health increase when aced."

[Esawo]

Something like that: http://pd2tools.com/l/416917b77016211b621d9f5e5a460647

I've lost all interest for PD2 so it's probably not perfect. Apart from Steady Grip in Technician and the aceing of Parkour in Ghost, everything is necessary. I use AP instead of HE rounds on the Judge because they're more reliable for shields, and the reinforced frame for it is not mandatory but helpful because it basically gives luminescent sights without reducing concealment. Regarding concealment, 25 is the very maximum you want to be at if you want to fully benefit from critical hits. So it's pretty much topped out already at 23. I took a lot of modifiers for stability because the Grims really need it.
The bread and butter of the hybrid version is that you get both Stoic health boosts from armor skills and from converted cops, which is why you will always have to convert some and pay attention to them.

[ajthewhitetiger]

i would love to setup this hybrid build, but i need more info if you would please

[ajthewhitetiger]

I wish you would of put in screenshots for the hybrid version as it seems more usefull and tanky.

[CptDawner]

thanks doc

[Esawo]

@[TAW] Dawner
If you ace Low Blow, yes.

[CptDawner]

Could i have the big brother mags on the grimms?

[DRACH (The farter)]

Not to talk about the whole more agressive AI thing.

[Esawo]

Using PocoHud, I can tell you they didn't. They increased the HS damage it seems, though.

[Fugu]

*shrugs* it says they lowered health on the news page. I don’t use a hud but it certainly feels lower.