Feedback: Card trading, but no spare cards to trade?

[Dany]

Using Don't Starve as an example, you can get three card drops before no more drop for you. To then complete the badge, you need two more cards for the set of five. Even if you get a duplicate card within your three drops to trade for one you havn't gotten, you still need to trade for two more cards.

As it stands right now, however, you have no spare cards to trade for the remaining cards you need. You are stuck on the three cards you need for the badge, no spares, and at a loss.

Of course, you can play a different game (i.e Portal 2 in the BETA) to get card drops which you can then trade (or sell to make money to buy ones you need, which I will count as 'trading' in this post for ease) the Don't Starve cards you need. But what then if you also want to make the Portal 2 set? You now have no Portal 2 cards at all - none towards your set, and no spares. No spares of anything, no trading to be done.

Perhaps Steam thinks this may improve when more games are added to the list - I don't believe it will. Not everyone will buy games they are not interested in, it's very likely people will wish to gather sets for all the games they buy. They will always be at a loss, with NO spare cards to trade.

Maybe some will say the aim is to only collect cards for your very favourite game - even though I want both Don't Starve card set and the Portal 2 card set, I must choose one to 'sacrifice' - trade those cards for the set I want more. However, I can still see this eventually causing problems. With the way the card drop system is now, you'll still evetually run out of cards to trade for even your most favourite games. It also means that no one will ever be able to fully take part in the Steam Trading Cards Feature, participation will end up sparse.

Upgrading your badges will be pretty much impossible.

Considering all this, the only way to fully participate to gather sets you want is to buy cards straight with money from your bank account - which is not trading. A more appropriate name would be 'Steam Buying Cards'.

Of course, in real life trading card games, you spend money to get the initial cards at all.. AND Steam is obviously wanting to make money from this (market place fees) which I don't begrudge them. My response to these two things is this: This is not real life card trading, it's Steam card trading to earn badges that show on your profile 'how much effort you have put in'. Effort, not money. Plus, there is no option to buy a pack of 20 cards for trading like in 'real life'. Second, I am completely on board with Steam reaping a little financial benefit from this new feature, but I believe that will still happen if the card drop system is changed to make it more about trading - avid collectors (who are now ABLE to be avid because it's a fully working TRADE system where average cards are gotten more easily rather than a buy system, and so people can participate properly) will still want to spend money on foils. You will still get people buying profile backgrounds/emoticons. And, of course, people will still buy cards rather than trade purely for ease (and generally being too socially awkward to ever communicate with a stranger to trade with).

To sum up:

I don't think this is currently a trading card feature like the title states. It's a buying card feature. I don't think this current drop system will allow for community members to fully participate. It's very restrictive. Being restrictive will mean that the feature will not get as much activity as it possibly deserves. At the very core of it, people in general do not have enough expendable income to participate in the system the way it currently is - I don't think it's enough to say 'tough luck' to those people, as they put effort in too, and without them you have only a small community actually using the feature.

Ideas for changes:

- Rarer but infinity dropped cards, with some cards being more rare than others.
- When you create a badge, your card drop count resets - this will still mean its hard to get going, but after that initial set you will at least have spare cards. This will also still mean you have to choose your favourite set - do you 'upgrade' your current badge for that game, or start working towards a badge for a completely different game?
- If a game has a set of five cards, you get five card drops. Theyre not all gaurenteed to be different, which means you now have spares to trade. This coupled with the reset idea would be great, but depending on what the drop chances are for each individual card, may make it too easy.. Still, it would be fully a trading card feature then (and people may still want foils!).

These are just ideas. They may not work, may need a bit of tweaking.. but either way, I do think there needs to be changes to the drop system for this to be considered a Trading game that people can properly participate in.

Okay, I'm done rambling. Thoughts? Anything I may have missed about the current system?

[Rounin]

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

Messaggio originale di Dannan:

Because people might actually rather utilise a working and fun trading card feature for the forseeable future than have $5 in their wallet? :/

With the suggestions here, it's not going to be very fun at all. You swap cards a couple of times and you're done. Too soon everyone has all the cards and badges you can get. What's the fun in achieving what everyone else has already? With almost no "effort" involved.

No, we just need a system that rewards people for playing games. That means a more advanced system that doesn't reward simple idling, and one that doesn't have static, finite drop limits. That I can agree on.

Well, there's a thing called achievments.

[Dany]

None of the suggestions here ask for unlimited cards. Of course the ideas and attitudes are going to look ♥♥♥♥ if you strawman them. People have said repeatedly they dont want unlimited cards, that they want their level and XP to be a product of effort and involvement rather than money - that was, and is, one of the main points of the whole thread...

[Vermilicious]

Messaggio originale di Dannan:

None of the suggestions here ask for unlimited cards. Of course the ideas and attitudes are going to look ♥♥♥♥ if you strawman them. People have said repeatedly they dont want unlimited cards, that they want their level and XP to be a product of effort and involvement rather than money - that was, and is, one of the main points of the whole thread...

Oh like "When you create a badge, your card drop count resets"? No. That is more or less unlimited right there.

[Vermilicious]

Messaggio originale di Rounin:

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

...No, we just need a system that rewards people for playing games. That means a more advanced system that doesn't reward simple idling, and one that doesn't have static, finite drop limits. That I can agree on.

Well, there's a thing called achievments.

Yeah, and they said they weren't able to connect card drops to achievements at this time. I think that is what they probably should do, and likely will.

[Dany]

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

Messaggio originale di Dannan:

None of the suggestions here ask for unlimited cards. Of course the ideas and attitudes are going to look ♥♥♥♥ if you strawman them. People have said repeatedly they dont want unlimited cards, that they want their level and XP to be a product of effort and involvement rather than money - that was, and is, one of the main points of the whole thread...

Oh like "When you create a badge, your card drop count resets"? No. That is unlimited right there.

Don't be ridiculous. The drop count resetting in a system that doesn't allow you to get all cards in one go, AND doesnt gaurentee all different cards does not make the cards limitless in a way that prevents trading, buying, selling, and activity. It will make them more available and promote trading, buying, selling and activity - because there will be more cards to trade, buy, and sell. You're still going to have to put effort in.

Plus, and a BIG plus, that is ONE suggestion that can absolutely be built on. Again, stop strawmanning. You can have three cards drop, then a couple tied to achievements. When you get the first badge, the drop count resets, so you now have two further drops. Theres all manner of ways these ideas can be built on, thats why people are throwing them about. In my initial post, I even pointed out how an idea would make things 'too easy'.

You can have all cards tied to achievements, then a reset. Anything.

Come on now, be a little rational. I'm very sure not many people throwing ideas around think that's how it should be forever, they are contributing thoughts and suggestions. That doesn't mean they feel the cards need to be easy and limitless.

[Dany]

Although lookikng at your profile I see you are a big(ish) Steam trader market person.. I can see how a less limited system would not benefit you and why you got a little upset about some of the suggestions, but please remeber that this feature is going to be, and intended to be, implemented for everyone - including people who do not profit out of big Steam trading.

Again, no one - at least not me and I don't see anyone else here either - is asking for limitless. I would like to be able to sell my cards for a bit of money, have it be challenging, and feel accomplished when I get a badge. I dont want to only feel accomplished because I spent a lot of my bank account money to fund my Steam wallet for cards that I could not trade for at all, while having no spares to sell myself at all. The only thing I'm asking here is.. make it possible for the average player, the average person who wants to take part, have fun, and yes.. spend a little money. Right now, with the current drop system and the limit, it's not going to be. It'll be great for you, but not others.. and if we're all going to get this feature, it'll be good if it's more appealing and possible for everyone whilst Valve and big traders like you still make money and profit. Perhaps a little less.. or perhaps a little more now that everyone can more easily get involved and work towards their badges. Get everyone involved and actually trading, rather than sitting there saying 'welp, I have nothing to trade with or sell or anything now'.

Not everyone plays TF2 or DOTA either, so not everyone has items to trade for cards.

I don't want it to be easy. I want it to be challenging. But I do want it to be possible for the average player, and it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ should be since everyone is gonna be part of the feature.

[LLamaBoy]

With the current state of the system, I am less inclined to participate than I would be if there were more and varied methods of gaining cards. Not an infinite supply, but a way to earn them over a longer period that involves actually making use of the games they are designed around.

As it is, the design is self-defeating for me, because I realise that even if I were to trade for cards - effectively meaning: spend money - there will always be some I cannot get due to scarcity or pricing.
Because of this, I prefer to not take part at all rather than have some mish-mashed half finished set of badges that don't actually reflect my gaming tastes, but rather where I found market opportunities.

Of course, this also means the cards I currently have are sitting around useless, removed from circulation, as I'm not that interested in the system to even try selling them for a few paltry cents that I will no be able to do anything with afterwards.
Oh well.

[Vermilicious]

Messaggio originale di Dannan:

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

Oh like "When you create a badge, your card drop count resets"? No. That is unlimited right there.

Don't be ridiculous. The drop count resetting in a system that doesn't allow you to get all cards in one go, AND doesnt gaurentee all different cards does not make the cards limitless in a way that prevents trading, buying, selling, and activity. It will make them more available and promote trading, buying, selling and activity - because there will be more cards to trade, buy, and sell. You're still going to have to put effort in.

Plus, and a BIG plus, that is ONE suggestion that can absolutely be built on. Again, stop strawmanning. You can have three cards drop, then a couple tied to achievements. When you get the first badge, the drop count resets, so you now have two further drops. Theres all manner of ways these ideas can be built on, thats why people are throwing them about. In my initial post, I even pointed out how an idea would make things 'too easy'.

You can have all cards tied to achievements, then a reset. Anything.

Come on now, be a little rational. I'm very sure not many people throwing ideas around think that's how it should be forever, they are contributing thoughts and suggestions. That doesn't mean they feel the cards need to be easy and limitless.

The points in your original post -together- make a practically limitless supply of cards that are no fun to trade. I did not mean to ridicule your points, but as you put them, it ruins the whole point.

Stop patronizing me for criticizing you.

[novembre]

I personally think you should be able to get around 6/9 for TF2, 3/5 for Don't Starve, etc Then, the next 1 or 2 you get by rare drops. You must first, have over _ hours on the game. Then, you must play then over _ hours on the game. Once those are met, it will be circulated into the normal drop system for you. The last one you can use trading skills for. But what's the average price? If you use a scale, a Mann. Co Key is 2.49USD. An average TF2 card is around 0.45USD. A TF2 card then is 1/5.5333333333 of a Mann. Co Key. A Mann. Co Key is around 5 ref right now. So you could say a TF2 card is 1 ref, but if keys go up even more, so do cards. I personally don't want trading cards to get tangled in the mess of key prices though. But, also you could fid the average price of FOIL cards. A lot of Foil Cards are around 20.00USD, 8 keys, or 40 ref. Then, you could buy 40 cards. But, that is IF the average price will be 1 ref. Then, if you do sucessfully sell your rare Foil Card on the market, for 20USD+, then get an average of 40 cards. 40 TF2 cards (at 0.45USD each), 25 Portal 2 Cards (at 0.80USD each), 25 DOTA 2 Cards (at 0.80USD each), 20 CS: GO (at 1.00USD each), 22 HL2 Cards (at 0.90USD each), or 14 Don't Starve cards (at 1.40USD each). Those estimations are rough, but that's all I have. The foil cards could be a game changer, but I don't know exactly how rare they are. I can only guess, probally only a sliver. An estimate though, I have. They are worth 40 TF2 cards. Would they be 40x rarer? I have no idea. But the trading cards are very interesting.

[Rounin]

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

Yeah, and they said they weren't able to connect card drops to achievements at this time. I think that is what they probably should do, and likely will.

Yo dawg, I heard you like achievments, so we put achievments in your achievments so you could achieve while achieving.

Coming up next year - we remove gameplay from games so that idling for achievments would decrease your processors workload.

[Vermilicious]

Messaggio originale di Rounin:

Messaggio originale di Vermilicious:

Yeah, and they said they weren't able to connect card drops to achievements at this time. I think that is what they probably should do, and likely will.

Yo dawg, I heard you like achievments, so we put achievments in your achievments so you could achieve while achieving...

In a sense, yes :)

The nice thing about achievements is that it takes time to complete, and some are quite harder than others.

[Tripas]

I wouldn't mind Steam to start cracking up on Achievement unlockers, honestly. At least then earning them would also be a lot more rewarding because people would know that you didn't just cheat for them.

And it's not like Valve couldn't start by just letting players report other players that seem to have magically unlocked about 50 different achievements in the exact same minute. Because they sure don't care about those reports now.

[Loftydreamer]

The idea behind this system is to encourage all around trade and increased need for the Market Place. Personally I feel the drops need to be refreshed by some means so as not to pigeon hole the customer into spending more or commiting to the market place more than they truly desire.

I understand the philosophy, but I have to admit it is far to limited. Nearly forcing players into things they may not wish to partake. The carrot versus the stick. Right now they are offering a half chewed carrot to come play with the trading boys.

Sure you don't need cards to trade, use TF2 items you get from preorders. Use ones you find. Sell your useless junk and buy the cards. Overall I am not advocating for Steam to make it easy and toss out the motives of the system, but it should be aimed along the lines of F2P.

Ultimately in F2P you can do everything, either through time or investment. At the moment with this system there is no time factor as card drops do not refresh which is a shame. And some people are not going to want to invest for a bit of bragging rights. Even if the emoticons are kind of fun stuff and the customization of the profile is nifty.