Discussing the Noteworthy Traditional Roguelikes

[DFuxa]

I'll use this text pace later for referencing what the list will look like - whenever I get around to actually officially constructing it.

Edit:

Chronological Order of every game below that is a contender:

Pioneer Era

• Rogue (1980)
  
• Larn (1986)
  
• NetHack (1987)
  
• Omega (1987)
  
• Angband (1990)
  
• Ragnarok (1992)
  
• UnReal World (1992)
  
• Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
  
• Alphaman (1995)

Philosophical Era

• Iter Vehemens ad Necem (2001)
  
• DRL (2002)
  
• POWDER (2003)
  
• Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (2006)
  
• Incursion (2007)
  
• Brogue (2009)
  
• Caves of Qud (2010)
  
• Infra Arcana (2011)
  
• Dungeons of Dredmor (2011)

Commercial

• Wayward (2011)
  
• Sil (2012)
  
• Elona+ (2012)
  
• Tales of Maj'Eyal (2012)
  
• Rogue's Tale (2012)
  
• Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (2013)
  
• Sword of the Stars: The Pit (2013)
  
• Cardinal Quest II (2014)
  
• Dungeonmans (2014)
  
• Shattered Pixel Dungeon (2014)
  
• The Ground Gives Way (2014)
  
• Cogmind (2015)
  
• Shadow of the Wyrm (2015)
  
• Golden Krone Hotel (2016)

Potential Future Majors

• Tangledeep (2017)
  
• Zorbus (2019)
  
• Jupiter Hell (2019)
  
• Stoneshard (2020)

Non-Traditional Roguelike Games that were outright removed.

Shiren the Wanderer: Mystery Dungeon
Castle of the Winds
Dwarf Fortress
One Way Heroics

[DFuxa]

As alluded to in my recent announcement, I'm thinking about making a list of the 'major' 'traditional' roguelike games in a Pinned Thread that can be viewed. I plan on making use of Roguebasin[roguebasin.com]'s list setup since it seems like a good way of giving a historical narrative for those looking to see where the games fall exactly.

Feel free to name drop those roguelikes you think I should be adding to the list - or perhaps giving arguments against those suggested by others that you feel don't meet the criteria of being a major roguelike - which I stated in the announcement as follows:

"Major Roguelikes are those games that have left a major impression on the community, were quite popular, and have influenced other games (roguelike or not) past their conception."

Again, to keep things simple I will make this list correspond to 'Traditional' Roguelikes; which is both to minimize fighting about what is or isn't a roguelike (since we should be able to agree that a game like Spelunky 'isn't' following the Traditional format) and to keep me from having to wade through more games then is needed.

[DFuxa]

Just to include it here, this is the historical major roguelike list from roguebasin that I've modified a bit:

1st generation roguelikes:
• Rogue (1980)
  
• Moria (1983)
  
• Hack (1984)
  
• Larn (1986)
  
• Omega (late 1980's)
2nd generation roguelikes:
• NetHack (1987)
  
• Angband (1990)
  
• Ancient Domains of Mystery (aka ADOM) (1994)
  
• Linley's Dungeon Crawl (aka Crawl) (1997)
3rd generation roguelikes:
• Tales of Middle Earth (aka ToME1) (1998)
  
• Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (aka DCSS) (2006)
4th generation roguelikes:
• Tales of Maj'Eyal (aka ToME4) (2012)

Some Discussion should probably be given towards Linley's Dungeon Crawl and ToME 1 - DCSS and Tales of Maj'Eyal are certainly influential (or were as the case may be) but did the original Crawl or ToME 1 ever provide anything more then a template to follow?

Also I removed Dwarf Fortress because I don't feel it really meets the definition of 'Traditional'. Even the Adventure Mode lacks the 'Self-contained' run feel as it isn't like there is a reset of things (for example like in Dungeonmans where even dungeon layouts reset).

[DFuxa]

Just throwing in some major traditional roguelike candidates that people named dropped from my announcement thread:

• Brogue (2009)
  
• Cogmind (2015) --- the 7DRL for this was in (2012); but would that be considered a different game?
  
• Cataclysm: DDA (2013) --- this is a branch of Cataclysm (2010); how popular might the original game have been? Also I haven't played it so 'is' it definitely a Traditional Roguelike?
  
• Sword of the Stars: The Pit (2013)
  
• Pixel Dungeon (2012) --- Go to the Play Store and type Pixel Dungeon; it has influence, even on Steam now
  
• Shattered Pixel Dungeon (2014) --- the student that eclipsed the master; it also is on Steam
  
• Zorbus (2019)
  
• Tangledeep (2017)
  
• Caves of Qud (2010)

[DFuxa]

And Why Not! I'm going to include one more post for Games that might deserve a nod:

• D**MRL (2002)
  
• Golden Krone Hotel (2016) --- 7DRL for this game released on 2014)
  
• Elona (2008)
  
• UnReal World (1992)
  
• Infra Arcana (2011)
  
• Torneko no Daibōken: Fushigi no Dungeon (1993) --- aka, the first game of the Mystery Dungeon series
  
• Fushigi no Dungeon 2: Fūrai no Shiren (1995) --- aka, Shiren the Wanderer, second game of the Mystery Dungeon series
  
• Shiren the Wanderer: The Tower of Fortune and the Dice of Fate (2020) --- Another
• Mystery Dungeon game
  
• One Way Heroics (2014)
  
• Stoneshard (2020)
  
• Dungeons of Dredmor (2011)
  
• Low Magic Age (2017)
  
• Wayward (2016)
  
• Dungeonmans (2014)
  
• Cardinal Quest II (2014)

[DFuxa]

So something I've been musing in my head: What exactly would be 'X' Generation of Roguelikes?

Incoming Link of Graphical Importance: Rogue-like Influences[commons.wikimedia.org]

The 1st Generation corresponds to the original Rogue and those games that immediately were inspired by it; but then where does that leave a game like Brogue which came out far later but was obviously inspired by it?

Then you have the 2nd Generation roguelikes which are derivative of the 1st Generation (minus Rogue itself) and finally the 3rd (and whatever generations come after) onward which was about as far as Roguebasin's list choose to go.

Personally I think it might be a good idea to limit generations to a sort of time period grouping if I go through them - there would have to be some arbitrary points of a generation beginning and another starting but I think that is doable with any major shakeups in the genre (and that may include outside of Traditional Roguelikes, like when Spelunky Classic and Binding of Issac appeared and greatly brought a lot of focus to the genre again).

One last thing to mention is that I should likely decide if there should be a hard time limit that I won't go past as well. Zorbus, which someone mentioned as a possible candidate, was only 'JUST' released this year (2022) on Steam. Stoneshard, a game with 20k+ reviews on Steam, is already looking to become a heavyweight Major just because of how popular the game is, but is still in Early Access and development on the game looks to be slow. Wayward and Low Magic Age also gets noted here as while released in 2016 & 2017 respectively, they are also in Early Access.

Considering these recent titles, it is rather hard to determine what sort of impact they may end up having on other games down the line since those other games haven't been made (or even had the prospective developers think about developing) yet.

[Nullsrc]

Maybe something like a chart showing the "tree" of influence would be worth creating. Maybe they could be colored or organized by year to try and find the generational groupings (if they're really present).

I'd hesitate to put lots of young games on the list, certainly. I think it takes a certain amount of time to shake out which games become genre influences and which games don't.

Since you seem interested in Roguelike history I'd recommend picking up the book Dungeon Hacks by David L. Craddock (if you don't own it already). I own a copy and it dives fairly deep into some of the early years of rogueliking, and features lots of discussion from developers. Some of the games discussed:

Beneath Apple Manor (doesn't seem to have influenced other games; predates Rogue; has most/all of the fundamental elements of Roguelikes)
Rogue (duh)
Hack
Nethack
Sword of Fargoal (Roguelike on the C64)
Moria
Angband
ADOM

[DFuxa]

Well, I suppose this leads to the next pondering to include - what games that have definitely 'had' influence of some sort not be included on this list?

Specifically, this is where the 'Mystery Dungeon' games needs to be discussed. There are a lot of Mystery Dungeon Titles to consider; even if we were just to focus on Shiren the Wanderer exclusively there are 5 different titles (4 in English) and a couple GameBoy titles. Without a doubt, Shiren the Wanderer has had immense influence and impact while being a fairly popular game. But should I jut take the first game of Shiren the Wanderer and say that is enough or should I sift through all the Mystery Dungeon games for the key titles?

This will have to be something else to consider too but what about games like Pixel Dungeon; Linley's Dungeon Crawl; Hack; or other games which generally have been forked, modded, or formed the basis to another highly successive game? One factor I've been thinking about is 'distinctiveness' as a quality. Looking at ToME for example, I'm probably not going to bother referencing anything besides Tales of Maj'Eyal from DarkGod.

I'll note that part of the reasoning to the above here is to try and keep the list as concise as possible. I do acknowledge that there is history here but I'm not against treating certain games as bumps along the road between Major games if I can get away with it.

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

The first roguelike according to me is Star Trek 1971.

[BenWah]

For a nod I'd add rogue's tale.

If I could only play rogue's tale and "sots: the pit" the rest of my life, I'd be happy

[DFuxa]

Adding another List then here for games to consider after posting a thread in the Roguelike Reddit; and Benwah's post above:

• Rift Wizard (2021)
  
• Jupiter Hell (2019)
  
• The Ground Gives Way (2014)
  
• Rogue's Tale (2012)
  
• Iter Vehemens ad Necem (aka IVAN) 2001

I've noted SotS: The Pit already but you were the first to mention Rogue's Tale.

[DFuxa]

Going through the suggested games trying to find justification for them being on the list; or there was justification for them their outright removal. Some combining of similar roguelikes and removal of ones I really couldn't justify occurred.

Notably I have bolded some roguelikes in this list and italicized others: Names in Bolt represent those games which I think are surefire Majors; italicized are those names of games which I am inclined should probably be removed (but someone is free to give me reasons why they should still be a Major roguelike). If a name is not in Bold or Italicized then I simply indifferent to them being on the list.

Rogue (1980) - Notably the namesake of the genre, influencing many games
NetHack (1987) - Representative of the Hack styled roguelikes, influenced many games
Angband (1990) - Representative of the Band styled roguelikes, influenced many games
UnReal World (1992) - Representative of myth & history roguelikes
Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994) - Representative of plot driven roguelikes, influenced many games
Fushigi no Dungeon 2: Fūrai no Shiren (1995) - Representative of mystery dungeon games, highly influential both within video games and outside of it
Iter Vehemens ad Necem (2001) - Representative of body & material systems in roguelikes
DRL (2002) - Representative of shooter roguelikes, influenced many games
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (2006) - Representative of Crawl styled roguelikes, influenced many games
Brogue (2009) - Representative of well designed roguelikes, Influenced many games
Caves of Qud (2010) - Representative of history generated roguelikes
Infra Arcana (2011) - Representative of lovecraftian roguelikes
Dungeons of Dredmor (2011) - Notable for getting onto Steam and being entry friendly
Tales of Maj'Eyal (2012) - Representative of ToME styled roguelikes, influenced many games
Pixel Dungeon (2012) - Representative of mobile roguelikes, influenced many games
Rogue's Tale (2012) - Representative of Berlin Interpretation
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (2013) - Representative of survival horror roguelikes
Sword of the Stars: The Pit (2013) - Representative of futuristic adventure roguelikes
One Way Heroics (2014) - Representative of sidescrolling roguelikes
Cardinal Quest II (2014) - Representative of designed for mobile roguelikes
Dungeonmans (2014) - Representative of persistent world roguelikes
The Ground Gives Way (2014) - Representative of improvised progression
Cogmind (2015) - Representative of robotic avatar roguelikes
Golden Krone Hotel (2016) - Representative of lighting mechanics
Wayward (2016) - Representative of survival crafting roguelikes
Tangledeep (2017) - Representative of story-based roguelikes, accessible and polished
Zorbus (2019) - Representative of a living dungeon
Jupiter Hell (2019) - Notable for higher production values, representative of minimalist controls
Stoneshard (2020) - Notable for higher production values, high popularity
Rift Wizard (2021) - Representative of strategic roguelikes

[Nullsrc]

I think the bolded entries are about right for this list of key influencers and "genre staples" (for lack of a better word).

Perhaps POWDER merits inclusion for being a very rare roguelike on handheld consoles and inspiring many homebrew ports of other roguelikes to those handheld consoles.

[DFuxa]

While running the threads in the r/roguelike thread I've been wondering a bit about the idea of criteria for what should be in the list and what shouldn't be. Then I got to thinking about how I ultimately plan to break down the roguelikes and came to the idea that maybe games should have different criteria for different sections of the list.

Something I've been thinking about is breaking the list down by major game shakers - those being Diablo and maybe Binding of Issac or Rogue Legacy. Those games work well because they actually conform succinctly to different periods that roguelikes went through and comfortably breaks them into three distinct sections to evaluate on. Alternatively I could go by time periods of 1980 to 1999, 2000 to 2010, 2010 to whatever; though honestly I like my other idea better as it follows more closely in line to when I believe criteria should begin to change on how roguelikes in the list are evaluated - read on for more.

Beginning at the start we have the Era before Diablo or the Founders/Foundation Era as I would likely call it; could call this the Pioneering Era too. This includes a lot of the first roguelikes that laid the foundation for many games (both roguelike or not) to the flavoring of the individual developers making those games. There was no established rules or definitions for how these games should be made during this time, so the legacy these games had following them.

Specifically besides those games that literally influenced developers of games after, we can look at how the game mechanics brought forth from these games that later roguelikes would use. Looking at Omega and Larn for example, they don't have very much influence in terms of games based on them, but the ideas of multiple endings or multiple dungeons to explore are commonly still seen in roguelikes today; not to mention other ideas these two games pioneered.

After the first Era we would have the Post-Diablo Era or what I would likely call the Interpretation Shapers Era. I name it thus as the Berlin Interpretation happens during this time, because games like Spelunky Classic and The Binding of Issac would be released, and we see a lot of roguelikes that aren't necessarily Fantasy-based popping up. Other possibly names might be Shapers Era, Expanders Era, Designers Era, Defining Era, or whatever else someone thinks is a good name for encapsulating what happened with roguelikes during this time. These roguelikes can be judged on their legacy as those in the previous era were, but probably moreso for the philosophies they worked under, the clever game designing they did, or getting onto Steam and proving roguelikes can be successful.

Specifically I mention philosophies and game design because the roguelikes of this era (both roguelikes named here but also the non-roguelikes like Diablo, Spelunky, etc) are really remembered not for their gameplay but the design choices behind it. DCSS is likely the most famous for its design manifesto (love it or hate it, I'm personally not over the Mountain Dwarves) in regards to this; Brogue has its lovely UI, accessibility, and approachability; and I'm starting to think Dungeons of Dredmor will likely end up on my list because it will likely also be judged by the criteria in the next era I'm about to talk about-

The Commercial Era. Solely being the name I picked because it is where we see a lot of roguelikes going commercial and the genre moving on from being a niche part of gaming. These games can still be judged on everything from the first two eras, but we can probably start to judge the roguelikes in this era based on their popularity; as I actually thought of a good argument for it.

I'm going to skip noting games here because I figure I'll discuss a bit about the idea of 'popularity' during this era in earnest (and my overall reluctance to consider it before now). Games might have player bases for a time but eventually all things get old and die. A game that could be stupidly popular back in the day might hold little of worth when played by modern gamers. Yet there is one distinct thing about roguelikes of the Commercial Era that make it slightly more important during this time in terms of how popular they are - and that is 'roguelites'.

Because of the roguelike genre being thrust into mainstream it is now much more heavily under the view of players outside of the niche it was once in. Partly driven by roguelites, we now have an issue where players are expecting that some of the characteristics of those games to be in Traditional Roguelikes as well; this would be expecting them to have 'progression' of some sort after you die as an example (and I'm sure some more can be named as well).

Anyhow, that was my thoughts in regards to thinking about evaluating criteria. I'll note that with this said it is justifiable to evaluate Jupiter Hell, Stoneshard, and Rift Wizard based on their popularity. I should also note that technically we can judge older games before Binding of Issac too (certainly Caves of Qud and Dungeons of Dredmor) but I wonder how much the popularity of the older games matters for the audience of today that isn't really actively looking for it.

[DFuxa]

So thinking about the comments from the recent r/roguelikes thread I made, I've been wondering if I should redefine this:

"Major Roguelikes are those games that have left a major impression on the community, were quite popular, and have influenced other games (roguelike or not) past their conception."

Ultimately it worked well for starting the topic, but it doesn't really do much for defining what is a major roguelike the way I want it too. Additionally if I have different criteria for different roguelikes due to when they were out it doesn't reflect that either. Maybe something like this should be stated instead:

"Major Roguelikes are those that have made significant contributions to building the legacy that started with Rogue as the genre developed from its relatively niche position to the more mainstream position it is now."

[DFuxa]

Been going through Steam Spy to get information on the suspected number of owners of these various steam games:

Caves of Qud (2010) - 5k Reviews, 200k-500k owners
Dungeons of Dredmor (2011) 3.3k Reviews, 200k-500k owners
Tales of Maj'Eyal (2012) - 4.5k Reviews, 500k-1M owners
Pixel Dungeon (2012) - 370 Reviews, 20k-50k owners
Rogue's Tale (2012) - 520 Reviews, 20k-50k owners
Sword of the Stars: The Pit (2013) - 1k Reviews, 200k-500k owners
One Way Heroics (2014) - 3.2k Reviews, 500k-1M owners
Cardinal Quest II (2014) - 83 Reviews, 0-20k owners
Dungeonmans (2014) - 834 Reviews, 100k-200k owners
Cogmind (2015) - 960 Reviews, 50k-100k owners
Golden Krone Hotel (2016) - 240 Reviews, 0-20k owners
Wayward (2016) - 976 Reviews, 50k-100k owners
Tangledeep (2017) - 946 Reviews, 20k-50k owners
Zorbus (2019) - 80 Reviews, 0-20k owners
Jupiter Hell (2019) - 1.1k Reviews, 20-50k owners
Stoneshard (2020) - 21k Reviews, 1M-2M owners
Rift Wizard (2021) - 728 Reviews, 100k-200k owners

Also for Fun:
Shattered Pixel Dungeon has 660 Reviews, 100k-200k owners
Shiren the Wanderer: The Tower of Fortune and the Dice of Fate has 544 reviews, 50k-100k owners

Anyhow, what is useful about using Steamspy this way is that it gives a good breakdown of who has likely exceeded 20k games sold. I do question some things though - Rift Wizard seems overly high in number of owners relating to their reviews, Wayward and Tangledeep are both very close in review count yet Wayward is higher then Tangledeep in owner estimation; saying nothing of Dungeonmans which is higher then both of them and quite a few other games with more reviews.

Obviously it is one source though. Also note that Cardinal Quest 2 isn't the best selling Steam game but that may be due to its high Early Access price and other ways of being able to play it.