Why do you like Yuri? srs discussion edition by a deeply confused man

[YDA S-Rank!]

Last discussion was a trainwreck, let me see if I can revive it.
Please try not to start fights and leave politics out of Girl's Love discussion unless it's pressing or relevant.

I'm new to yuri and I don't know why I like it so much but I have theories and I want to ground here. Before anybody gets on me, yes, I'm aware the yuri genre includes soft love stories andcarnal lesbian porn and dramatic LGBTQA+ life and issues and everything in between the three, and yes, I know this topic is important and personal to a lot of actual lesbians and non-cisgendered persons of various flavors.

Anyway, I've heard some colorful opinions about yuri, people saying they like it as merely 'cute' and 'fluffy' all the way to the extreme of people proclaiming the stuff as 'spiritual' and 'transcending the crude male mind'. For me, I don't know how I feel about it but what little soft yuri I've seen really struck feelings with me. Before I talk anyone's ears off, can anyone else contribute with anime/manga names/examples and basic ideas on how they found their tastes?

[Rasp]

Publicado originalmente por Sapphire:

Publicado originalmente por DDST Rasp:

Feels like splitting hairs honestly and in relation to the minor phisilogical differences sure but thats small potatoes - not speaking to the relationship itself so much. I dunno just feel like a relationship is SO much larger than that or it seems like it should be. so it shifts from empathy to sympathy but is that really so big a difference? if a partner lacks empathy thats its own issue... I went through a lot of taumatic stuff in my childhood and it comes back to haunt me - but I cant imagne it would make that big a difference if my patner HAD gone through something similar as opposed just just being open and empathetic. And if it DID make that big an impact I'd mark that as a fault of my own. When someone start spitting hairs between sympathy and empathy then I'd say yeah that ones the asshole.

Again it sounds like you're misunderstanding me, I'm not saying that it is this big impact but a small one can still make a difference. And straight couples seem to work out just fine so again, not a big impact but there still is an impact but in general it just matters who you like and who you're with.

and I just disgree with that - just feel the impact is so small as to be completely meaningless for all but the most anal. If that leaves any kind of impact at all it would have to be because it was fueled by deeper issues (probably foundational issues) within the relationship.

Publicado originalmente por Sapphire:

And you're right it is not all the same again small impact not a big one, never said it was all the same and I think you're getting all worked up on something you don't seem to understand me all that well on and at this point I don't think I can explain it much better, English is not my primary language.

I'm not worked up over it I'm just noting that perspective matters here.

[Rasp]

I wouldn't let little things like that get to me and I don't know how a relationship could survive someone who did - just... doesn't seem healthy to me and I've had a fair share of relationship go to hell over things that should never have made an impact. For me the relationship I want to be in is freeing and awesome - not sufficating and walking around on eggshells - sounds to me like a miserable way to live. Back to the topic at hand I suppose...

[meow]

y'all a bunch of whiney bitches

[Minuto]

Publicado originalmente por remy:

y'all a bunch of whiney bitches

Well, this is why I prefer Dynasty Reader... you don't have idiots like this clogging the discussion.

[YDA S-Rank!]

Well, thank you all for bearing with that, but I think we're getting somewhere with this.

Blackrising and Sapphire touched on criticizing yuri because of it being 'clichéd' and 'offensive'. Would you or anyone else like to elaborate on that? I can understand clichés as any part of a romance being done to death across the medium but I haven't been through enough yuri to give good examples. But as for yuri being offensive, that in particular was something I was beginning to wonder. Would this offense mostly come from yuri often failing to depict real LGBT issues or is there something else? I have cursory knowledge of the yuri genre and IRL lesbianism at best so I'd appreciate someone more invested in those things would elaborate. What I know from TV Tropes is that only a very small portion of the yuri genre is aimed at drama-oriented, mature audiences, whereas the rest is primarily differing flavors of fluff romance, fanservice and pure-blooded smut.

And while I was away (work was killer, don't ask) Mega Mini Knight released a torrent of his own thoughts on this topic. On which I have to say, MMK, your word economy is almost as bad as mine (don't be mad, it's earnest and endearing), and also that I noticed a few things in particular from that. First, you mentioned that you see a lot of destructive heterosexual relationships in your life, but have almost no context with lesbians in your personal life. So this might get personal but do you feel there's a moral component to yuri, at least for yourself?

And when you said, "I mean, this is a group for lesbians to talk." that wasn't entirely my intention. I can imagine the Hella Yuri group has a good fare of real lesbians but also a share of genre fans of varying walks of life and a number of LGBT allies. As far as this particular thread is concerned, I just want a broad understanding of the topic and I want genuine commentary from confused, long-winded young men like you and I just as much as I want it from real lesbians (provided everyone here can be on good terms and not tank this like the last thread).

[Rasp]

Publicado originalmente por Flash Bomb:

I have cursory knowledge of the yuri genre and IRL lesbianism at best so I'd appreciate someone more invested in those things would elaborate. What I know from TV Tropes is that only a very small portion of the yuri genre is aimed at drama-oriented, mature audiences, whereas the rest is primarily differing flavors of fluff romance, fanservice and pure-blooded smut.

Here's the thing - its no so much about IRL stuff as - the fantaisies we're presented as options are a VERY narrow amount - there's nothing wrong with fluffly non-challenging romances but when that represents the majority of content availible - there remains other underserved markets - I like more complex stories and nuianced characters which is rare enough on its own that it feels like a massive letdown when I cant find that in yuri flavor.

I feel like there is a sizable and growing market for more quality content in various genres with yuri content - how cool would it be if we had a cool LoD style RPG that had a central yuri love story or cronicled the adventures of this couple out doing - whatever they're just a cute couple out doing things - just seeing that kind of flavoring in other genres we already enjoy - I'm a big fan of steampunk - I'd love to see a steampunk rpg based around a couple. there are so many untapped types of stories that aren't being told in a yuri favor and it would be nice to have more variety and options. Candy is nice but you'll grow sick of it quickly if thats all you eat. need some veggies in there maybe a salad... a burger or a chicken sandwich - right now our menu consists entirely of cotton candy. I've had my fill of that can we get something else?

I cant speak to it being 'offensive' but alot of what we have is.... boring... and that's worse.

[Blackrising]

I find a lot of yuri offensive mostly because it really doesn't care about gay people. It's just very obvious that it's meant to be enjoyed by straight men and as Rasp has said, the narrow representation it gives is a serious problem.

Here we have an all-girls school. Girls fall in love with other girls and it's always the purest thing ever, so soft and gentle and non-problematic I'd like to hit them all over the head. They fantasize about their chosen senpai in such a poetic and cheesy way that it makes me want to hit them AGAIN. Because no woman - no person - acts or thinks that way.

We're people. We're greedy, we make mistakes. We feel lust and we feel love, but we also feel anger and possessiveness.

Meanwhile, these girls I'm supposed to accept as someone to identify with are caught within the depiction of a straight dude's fantasy of lesbians - utterly non-threatening to his manhood (because lesbian relationships are soft and pure, you see, they're so different from het relationships that he doesn't have to feel like he might lose a competition) and always contained to a space where men either don't exist or don't play a role. (Leaving the presumed straight male viewer free to assume that hey, lesbianism is just a side effect of not having men around!)

On the other side, we have the straight-up porn. I don't think I need to go into why porn is generally more enjoyable for straight men than lesbians, but it's really just the opposite extreme. Lesbians are something to get off to, something for YOU, straight male viewer, to enjoy at your leisure.
(Don't get me wrong, I enjoy quite a lot of porn. Even porn that is aimed at dudes. But japanese fanservice just makes me feel like I'm not supposed to be there because why the heck would I want to stare up some girl's skirt? Why would I wanna watch a girl blow a banana?? Why does this exist???)

Yuri* doesn't treat gay women as people. We're props. Vessels. An idealized version of a fantasy that was never realistic in the first place.

*I don't mean every yuri anime/manga/whatever out there, of course. There are exceptions. And I don't mean that I want yuri to deal with specifically gay issues. Hell, I don't WANT to read about yet another coming-out story. I just want realistic characters with realistic emotions.

P.S: A lot of this can be blamed on cultural differences, I know that. Japan's society is not a particularly progressive or open-minded one. But that knowledge doesn't make me grit my teeth at what comes out of it any less. xD

[Rasp]

I don't think there is anything offensively wrong with the very oversexualized pandering stuff and I've known my share of lesibans who enjoy that and enjoy porn even if it wasn't made with them in mind - whoever wants that fantasy can have it - what I want is more complex or grounded stories out there that don't fall into the usual eastern or western tropes.

Escapist Fiction is there to sell us on a fantasy and there are just new and mostly unexplored territory here that could be exploited. I know first hand writing is hard but you need toi under shand what jospeh cambell meant as opposed to what the book said.

[Hanako Games]

While I'm generally staying out of this as long as everyone behaves, I feel sort of compelled to point out that I really DID go to an all-girls religious school, and we really DID have a tendency to swoon over our senpais in a bizarre and innocent manner that for the majority of students did not develop into actual attraction to women. There are many things about tropey yuri that I can roll my eyes at, but that particular one I'll defend as being completely believable to me :)

Black Closet pushes things in a more explicitly gay direction than what really happened. (The evil scheming is a bit exaggerated too, obviously)

So to me the girls-school settings are very comfy, but even I like to see more variety.

[Rasp]

Publicado originalmente por Hanako Games:

So to me the girls-school settings are very comfy, but even I like to see more variety.

Exactly my point steriotypes and cliches have their place and if thats what you want more power to you - I'd just like to see more other stuff. I have a personal hangup with highschool - mostly because that was by far the worst time of my entire life and - I was contemplating suicide pretty consistently for the duratrion - the promise was college would be better - it wasn't - like at all - but I dropped out and got better. So school has always been synonymous with staring at a bottle of laundry detergent and seriously wondering how painful it would be if I chugged it.

I really have no desire to revisit that time in my life.

[Blackrising]

Then your experiences are very different than mine were, Hanako. Since I've been attending co-ed schools all my life, I can't actually imagine what an all-girls school is like. Yuri still feels very over-the-top to me, however.

For the record, I do know that not everyone has the same outlook on this stuff (and not all lesbians share a hivemind) and as far as I'm concerned, people can enjoy whatever they want.
I'm also not a fan of anime, so I think it's safe to say I simply don't like any of it, regardless of genre.

I just feel very uncomfortable with how they handle f/f relationships is all.

[Korelis]

Publicado originalmente por Blackrising:

It's just very obvious that it's meant to be enjoyed by straight men and as Rasp has said, the narrow representation it gives is a serious problem.

I don't think that's really accurate. A large percentage of yuri authors are female (I can't confidently say it's the majority, but it's pretty close at least), and the majority of the readers are girls (originally it was primarily straight girls, but now it leans more towards bi/lesbian girls). One of the most popular yuri manga magazines, Yuri Hime, has a readership that's around 60-70% female. They had a male-targeted publication for a while (Yuri Hime S), but it wasn't popular enough to stand on its own.

The innocence and fluffiness and lack of men isn't to appeal more to insecure heterosexual men, it's to appeal to Japanese girls who simply like the cuteness and fluffiness.

That's not to say it isn't often poblematic in various ways. A lot of it still avoids actually mentioning homosexuality, and is more of an "I like you despite your gender" sort of thing, for example, and a lot of it is still heavily influenced by the idea of "class S" relationships (schoolgirls forming light romantic attachments, which are seen as normal for children but immature and harmful if it continues into adulthood).

If you want to try some yuri manga by lesbian authors, I recommend Takemiya Jin (one of my favourite authors period, not just yuri manga authors), Morishima Akiko, Shimura Takako, and Yamaji Ebine.

[tenshi_a]

Have some posts been removed from this thread? It's a bit difficult to follow at times.

@Mega Mini Knight

Wow you're a complex fellow. :) Your posts have been really interesting, I just wanted to say.

I guess yuri has just become the standby for people who want romance that avoids the negative aspects of love. A soaring love that's free from power games, free from mad jealousy and cruelty, free from the inconveniences of obligation and (for the most part) major societal expectation.

But it also means it's missing all those things.

I guess it's a bit like... if I were to explain it in terms of games, because.... I talk about games a lot.... :P ...it's like... Pokemon is really popular. It's got a massive fanbase and it's been going for decades and it's reliable, like... it will always be a safe haven. It is a symbol of happiness beyond the scope of the content of the actual games. It takes people away from their real lives into the Pokemon universe where nothing really terrible will happen to them. There is no place on earth as safe as a Pokemon Centre. I've heard mothers on the bus tell their children "no no, that's not going to work, it's a steel type", it so enduring and widespread. No matter what happens to you, you have a terrible day... if you play some Pokemon it will lift you as it always has. If you put the TV on and Pokemon is there, the tender moments will reach your heart, and Team Rocket will make you laugh. And the most unfortunate humans on earth are the ones for whom Pokemon no longer works, where they have become sour with loss for something they didn't know they ever realise has value. I also think this is why there are so many internet Pokemon ghost stories, because it's tapping into that feeling of total safety and abusing it.

But there are also Shin Megami Tensei games. Much older than Pokemon. Much smaller fanbase. Dark, based in the real contemporary world gone horribly wrong, full of demons.... which you fight, chat with, and recruit to fight for you, and merge to create new demons and new moves (which aren't limited to four per monster). You often get to make choices in the games that actually massively affect the flow and outcome of the story. It's complex, difficult, harsh, bleak, interesting, much more rooted to reality, and easy to suddenly die.

It's like modern yuri has Pokemon but doesn't have an equivalent Shin Megami Tensei.

....or is it that modern yuri is so relatively scarce that its popular form is all that turns up in English but its even rarer, darker, more based-on-life form is something I have not yet encountered?

I mean, the only Japanese VN I can think of on Steam that's definitely written by a lesbian is "ATOM GRRRL!", and that's like... on a scale of Pokemon to Shin Megami Tensei, it's Saints Row 2. XD

You know, I do miss old school yuri, even though it usually ended under the wheels of a train or something horrific like that. There was so much wrong with it, but... such a roller-coaster!

And as for me.... yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe I like yuri because real love is too painful. I think the me who falls in love, like, really and intensely... maybe that's someone I don't like much. Maybe that's someone I don't want to be anymore. Maybe if it all went wrong again, I don't think I could survive. Maybe I got twisted round to thinking.... "this is what love is if you are doing it right". Maybe I am broken. In a most beautiful way.

[rincewind]

Publicado originalmente por Aspoehro:

If you want to try some yuri manga by lesbian authors, I recommend Takemiya Jin (one of my favourite authors period, not just yuri manga authors), Morishima Akiko, Shimura Takako, and Yamaji Ebine.

I agree with this, one millon of times.
Particularly I love Morishima's works!! I can't even choose a favorite, because all are great.
And love how she loves to make adult women the protagonists.
(And her real life adventures with fellows yuri mangakas in 'Yuri friends' are hilarious)

And in the manga is where yuri truly shines. There's too few visual novels or anime, but we got much more manga works. There is the true variety of yuri.

From the classical high school 'but we're both girls!' story, to the OL that discover that women are in fact an option, to the melancholic stories about loss and confort and relationship moving as time passes, to cute and fluffy domestic life of two married women, to the depressing fate of shipgirls and their love... if only we could get an animated adaptation of one quarter of all those.

[Captainoffail]

Cuz it's the purest form of love?

Honestly I have no clue. It's the same as why I like the colour blue and why I hate olives.

Also forget your own sex or gender. There is no great difference between our minds that prevent one half from enjoying yuri. Romance is not just for self insert.