Is our definition of "Woke" too broad?

[› Furin]

I'm posing this question after an interesting discussion with a member of WACGA, you can find the original discussion here:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/WACGA/discussions/0/4763207511836482307/

I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

[Sunsetter]

I dunno, what's your definition?

[› Furin]

Oh, sorry I should have been more specific. What I mean is, do you disagree with anything written on the methodology page?

If you do, what is your suggestion for what we should do instead?

[Alpharius]

In your case, majority of people will consider it extreme approach but I can understand why you deem it necessary. Because the left have used our tolerance against us before. While people on this side said "It's not a big deal" "It didn't change anything" The left saw this as justification to push more and more.

I do appreciate the different standard of tolerance.

[Leozaz il Remoto]

Originally posted by › Furin:

I'm posing this question after an interesting discussion with a member of WACGA, you can find the original discussion here:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/WACGA/discussions/0/4763207511836482307/

I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

No. people are soft

[Sunsetter]

To misappropriate a movie quote in a bit of a tongue in cheek manner:

If your methodology has led you to conclude Portal - of all things - is woke, of what use was that methodology?

I dont think anything prior to 2014 should be considered woke, although obviously that will depend on your definition. So if you, per your methodology, find the mere presence of LGBT content woke, then those older games would still be deemed woke.

I think this group needs to pay more attention to the intent behind the inclusion of something, at least in the example where it can be known. For example, somebody brought up in the forum of the game SPINE it must be woke cause the protagonist is girl and all enemies are male (that we know), but one look at said protagonist clearly shows devs have no intention of pandering to the woke crowd.

I also think we should all keep track of our confirmation biases. In the Portal discussion here, the examples raised were along the lines of women good, men bad and subject to ridicule, but there's no mention of the fact that one female character is a homicidal maniac that gets put in a potato and the other gets made fun of for looking fat (by a female character).

Lastly, I think you shouldnt use the acronym LGBTQ+, but rather LGBT, because everything after T are purely woke incoherent concepts (like nonbinary people and gender identity) that should not be taken seriously.

[William Shakesman]

It's a complicated concept. For most people, it's like explaining to a fish what water is, when the fish has never experienced "not water" at all in his life. Even if you could teach him the word water, he can't understand what it could possibly represent. A lot of us ourselves are fish trying to breathe air for the first time and feeling this out. Trying to parse it out to a specific one-size-fits-all definition is silly. People need to be adults about this, READ the reviews, and decide for themselves what aspects of what story work in what ways, and understand that this terminology cannot ever be precise to the level of engineering. It is one thing to have a few representations of 3% of the population in a few games but to see that population essentially now mandatory in every game becomes a systemic issue. You can't map that on a per game basis.

I don't think there is much point in trying to make sure all your reviews are perfectly free of cringe. It won't win anyone over and documenting this sort of thing is going to be inherently cringey no matter what you do or try. That doesn't mean it is not noble, it just means that like being the garbage man, you don't look cool doing it, but it must be done. The information here IS useful, and being hung up on Portal 2 is simply making the perfect the enemy of the good. You're dealing with new concepts that people are just awakening to, so again, cringe is unavoidable. It is perfectly fine to see a negative review, think about it, and decide that the recommendation is not going to warn you off for one reason or another. You can't get the documentation at the scale is being done here without getting data like that too.

[› Furin]

Originally posted by Samael:

Lastly, I think you shouldnt use the acronym LGBTQ+, but rather LGBT, because everything after T are purely woke incoherent concepts (like nonbinary people and gender identity) that should not be taken seriously.

I use LGBTQ+ mainly because that's the tag used in the Steam store.

I could change it though if you guys feel strongly enough about it.

However, I'd say LGBT is problematic too. I would argue the B and especially the T are also made-up leftist concepts that don't make sense biologically.

[› Furin]

Originally posted by Samael:

I dont think anything prior to 2014 should be considered woke, although obviously that will depend on your definition. So if you, per your methodology, find the mere presence of LGBT content woke, then those older games would still be deemed woke.

I think this issue has been blown out of proportion by vocal detractors that haven't actually read the vast majority of our list.

For context:

-there are 10 games released in the year 2012 or before with not recommended reviews.

-there are 46 games released in the year 2012 or before with informational reviews.

-most of the games from this time period are classified as not recommended due to featuring (as main characters) LGBTQ+ characters.

-most of the games from this time period are classified as informational due to either minor homosexual characters or homosexual romance options (or both).

-I know you can all do math, but 56/1409 games is 4%.

-Similarly, 10/748 is 1.3% of all not recommended games, and 46/296 is 15% of all informational games.

-if my math is right, 1223 of our games come from 2012-2024 with the following breakdown:

22 from 2012
33 from 2013
44 from 2014
71 from 2015
87 from 2016
108 from 2017
102 from 2018
86 from 2019
122 from 2020
116 from 2021
149 from 2022
168 from 2023
115 from 2024

I don't see a problem with informing people these themes exist in older games, especially when such games make up a tiny minority of the overall list.

It shouldn't be a big deal to most people, and it helps those that want to ignore these themes entirely.

The people getting hung up over calling pre-2012 games "Woke" are really just bickering over semantics, in my view.

[Sunsetter]

I wasn't referring to you or your list, just my own stance on pre 2014. games. If your definition is what you state in methodology, then that's that.

As for the acronym, I'm probably the only one here with that opinion (without opening a whole new can of worms if each individual first letters) so you can leave that too I guess.

[caltrop77]

ok, so i seen your list of woke games posted online, and saw that it came from a steam group n i instantly decided to join it. first i wanna say, ur work is greatly appreciated and this is a very helpful resource. i think that as it is now, it's still rlly helpful, and informational to know what's in games.

with that out of the way, as someone staunchly anti-woke, yes i have to say maybe here the definition is too broad, n a little too much...come on guys, as an example. i been playing helldivers 2 with my son and it's an amazing game, now from what i seen, what you call subtly pro-lgtv messaging, is nothing...i think with all the DEI and wokeness in games, we are getting a little bit too paranoid about anything that seems a little off...i think you are looking into the voice option thing too hard...it don't matter too much, n it's better than the "body type a" "body type b" crap we seen in other games. and mixed race family in the intro...come on guys, i would get if this was a medieval game, it makes more sense to complain about that, but this is a sci fi game, n it's futuristic, there are mixed race couples in the modern world, and so it makes sense in a sci fi game...a medieval or historic game, yeah it would not make any sense...this kind of thing just gives lefties fuel to call us racist n get us cancelled, even though they are wrong 99.9% of the time, in this instance i think it's way too much to call this woke or DEI messaging...just my two cents on that though. and yes, i know that the game is just listed as "informational" and not "not recommended" but i just wanted to point that out...

n by the way...no mention on killing floor for the tripwire ceo getting cancelled and being forced to step down for making an anti-abortion statement on twitter...just thought i should say that...do not support these devs...

but anyway more on why i think the definition of woke is too broad...i got the same thing about listing games that just got a wheelchair character at all, such as overcooked...i seen that game n played it a little bit, n as far as i can tell, it's really not woke or DEI at all...unless you seen that a dei consulting company of some kind has been involved with it, in which case i retract my statement. but otherwise, that game got a lot of characters u can select to play as, n as i said i think personally the overwhelming presence of wokeness might be making us jump at shadows a bit too much...but i don't blame u, naturally, for including these things just in case, as i said it's just my two cents...it's important for the people who care not to see that at all still i suppose...

[caltrop77]

also not sure the sense in mentioning all these degenerate porn games...just saying, of course 99% of those are filled with woke garbage, most of that anime garbage is for pedos and homosexuals
you want a tip if you are really against wokeness or dei, don't even look at that garbage, and turn it off in your account settings so you don't see it...

[sam-jm1]

i just came to say. There is a bit of methodology in your ideology.

[William Shakesman]

Bickering over semantics is part of the territory. The only people who end up here are either disagreeable by nature (to be here you have to reject the popular assumptions of society) or... I cannot use the correct word but let me use a euphemism, people who like Dorf Fortress, Factorio, and are great at spotting patterns. People of that nature are ALWAYS going to argue semantics when locked in a room together and will do it forever. This is not even counting people trying to triangulate and find a position here that is not "uncool" or "cringe" at all.

Just don't take the arguing personally and remember it is in the nature of most people here. If you can argue once or twice and agree later, you have an ally. If he holds a grudge and keeps trying to #own you online three months later, that is a personality issue he has that you should distance yourself from.

[Kerghnax]

One thing I disagree with is adding porn games, this seriously hurts credibility. I've seen others confused by calling games overtly pro-LGBT because of body types or pronouns, perhaps you could use IDPOL or something for these.

[William Shakesman]

Also woke wasn't just a fresh invention but a name given to a bunch of societal trends that really did start decades ago that only really started getting extremely annoying as of late. Trying to set a start date is silly because this is a snowball that has been rolling for quite some time.