VAC bans should be removed by purchasing another license

[YummySquirts]

As most of you here know, when you're VAC (Valve Anti Cheat) banned from a game in Steam, it's pretty much there for good. There is also no negotiation. This is in place to deter cheaters by essentially setting a "no tolerance, no forgiveness" policy for cheating. It certainly has its virtues. Many hundreds of thousands if not millions of people play games like Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, so it's very important to keep the community clean of those that would grief others.

But I think there's another side of the coin as well - people that cheated a long time ago and have completely changed their ways. I'm one of them.

Literally something like 6-7 years ago I was just another skill-less teenage foff that had to cheat on Counter-strike to get kills. It was cool, I could see people through walls, kill them as they came around the corner, pretend nothing was going on, and bask in my glorious K/D. I would use the AWP along with an aimbot to aim slightly below the head to insta-kill anyone I see without appearing too suspicious (since many legitimately good players can actually do as such). So been there done that. I was later rightfully banned by VAC from all Source games.

Fast forward to now, I play Battlefield: Bad Company 2 MP, Dawn of War 2 MP, various MMOs, and even Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead among others (on another account). I play them all fairly well, enjoy myself, and do so without cheating. I also sincerely have no intention of ever using a cheat online again, since to me it would be like personally insulting myself, succumbing to the notion that it's impossible to improve my own skill or knowledge.

The one annoyance I have with using Steam right now is I have to maintain two accounts. One is for most of the games I get off of Steam sales, the other is for just multiplayer Source games (the not banned one obviously). It would be great if I could just play the games on my original account again by having the VAC bans removed through purchasing another license of the game in which I'm banned in.

But won't that increase cheating? Well here's the thing, as I mentioned above I already have a separate account where I can purchase and play such games that I was originally banned from years ago, and I play them now without cheating. The only difference between my proposal and the system that already exists is cutting out one step - the creation of another account.

Current system if VAC banned:

1) Create another account
2) Purchase games again

My proposed system if VAC banned

1) Purchase games again

If there happened to be a well-endowed cheater that would just continually buy new licenses to cheat and grief people as soon as he got banned, such a system is already in place and they would already be doing so by simply creating new accounts and buying the games again (not to mention, such people are probably in the extreme minority).

There may also be the criticism that new accounts actually help deter cheating further by wiping achievements and stats as a corollary - simple, just wipe achievements and stats for the affected games if cheating is detected but still allow the ban to be removed by the purchase of another license so that they can earn them again.

I believe that Steam should allow players to have a remission of their VAC ban through a purchase of another license of the affected game. The current system already allows chronic cheaters to simply create another account and buy another license, so my proposed system doesn't enable more cheating, it just cuts out an unnecessary middle step so that players who have legitimately changed their ways can enjoy their games the way they want them to be enjoyed again.

[Tito Shivan]

And the fact that no other ACS has ever considered to venture into that option also speaks for itself.

[StuntCock]

I think you should have your IP banned and NEVER get to play again.. All cheats are NOTHING but a Thief who steals from EVERY other player.. WE pay money to play a FAIR
game.. ALL CHEATERS should just go die.

[DonVino]

IP, Mac address...can all be easily changed

[Satoru]

Nya` の投稿を引用：

Satoru の投稿を引用：

Cheaters would simply rotate between single account games and get 'free' VAC unbans on them.

And again any impression that ou can 'pay 2 cheat' is utterly deterimental to the perception of VAC which is just as important as it's actual effectiveness. If cheaters know they can pay their way out they behave in very very different ways

It would literally change absolutely nothing and you overdramatics always focus on completely irrelevant nonsense, get real.

They buy another license on their account to get rid of a VAC ban.

=

The same thing as making a new account and buying the game again.

No VAC ban.

They spend $100+ to remove a VAC ban from their account.

=

The same thing as making a new account and buying the game again except they had to spend $100+ if they want to continue using that specific account.

It changes nothing, if people want to cheat again they make a new account and cheat, this is no different than buying the game again on the same account and cheating again, the difference is an illusion.

You are correct it changes nothing for the cheater

However as I have argued it makes all the difference in the world to non cheaters perception of the system.

Again TRUST in the system is critical. You already have people who claim

1) VAC is a money making system
2) Steam is in cahoots with cheat makers
3) VAC doesn't ban often enough

Without users trust, users and developers, will not want to use VAC as their system. This trust then extends to the games themselves. Where users no longer trust VAC to do it's job an abandon the game.

Your scenario of cheating on a different account isn't relevant. Users need to feel that cheaters get banned. If your're not cheating on your main, then users won't be screaming for that account to get banned. But if users see your cheating alt never getting banned, or worse, banned/unbanned in infinte cycles that absolutely changes how people perceive VAC. Even if functionally for the cheater it's the same, to the non-cheater population it absolutely changes the perception and the perceived integrity of the system. Trust and integrity are absoultely integral parts of any anit-cheat system.

Trust and integrity is a critical part of the system. Think about AV software. I don't recommened AVG? Why? Because it generates so many false positives lately it's not trust worthy anymore. Users begin to thing everything is a false positive. They begin to ignore real warnings.

[(SOGA) SouthernBoy]

" Being able to buy your way out of a ban realistically changes absolutely nothing, it only eliminates the need to make new accounts, that's it. "

Are you kidding me ? LOL Changes nothing ????

What is does is what others has already said, that it would show that as long as you have money, you can cheat as much as you can afford, and hides the fact that you are a cheater.

This would be a blessing for the cheater, and can cause legit players to lose faith in VAC, in Valve, and even providers of such products.

EX: A cheater admits hes cheats then pays a dollar amount to have his record esponged.

What about justice for the people who was harmed by your cheats and may not play again that game and or buy that game newer version becuase of this incident (lost monies for developers). Plus, now you are clean and can do it again, just for what ever reason you may have, and no one knows that it is you, just because of money. (Not to mention the moral idea of good and bad)

Changes Nothing !! Get REAL

[nya[dc]]

Satoru の投稿を引用：

You are correct it changes nothing for the cheater

However as I have argued it makes all the difference in the world to non cheaters perception of the system.

Again TRUST in the system is critical. You already have people who claim

1) VAC is a money making system
2) Steam is in cahoots with cheat makers
3) VAC doesn't ban often enough

Without users trust, users and developers, will not want to use VAC as their system. This trust then extends to the games themselves. Where users no longer trust VAC to do it's job an abandon the game.

Your scenario of cheating on a different account isn't relevant. Users need to feel that cheaters get banned. If your're not cheating on your main, then users won't be screaming for that account to get banned. But if users see your cheating alt never getting banned, or worse, banned/unbanned in infinte cycles that absolutely changes how people perceive VAC. Even if functionally for the cheater it's the same, to the non-cheater population it absolutely changes the perception and the perceived integrity of the system. Trust and integrity are absoultely integral parts of any anit-cheat system.

Trust and integrity is a critical part of the system. Think about AV software. I don't recommened AVG? Why? Because it generates so many false positives lately it's not trust worthy anymore. Users begin to thing everything is a false positive. They begin to ignore real warnings.

Like previously stated it's an illusion, the outcome is still exactly the same without all the run around. Being able to continually cheat spanning different accounts has the same effect as cheating on one account, buying a license again and then proceeding to do it again.

The official stance that Valve already has is if you get banned to make a new account and repurchase the game(s) again if you wish to play again. This accomplishes the same thing, it doesn't mean they are endorsing cheating in any way, it just eliminates the pointless creation of new accounts.

People needing to feel that users get banned in laughable, VAC is already a third rate ACS coupled with the fact that if you get banned you can be back to cheating in less than five minutes in and of itself provides no reassurances in its integrity of any kind.

You guys are grasping at straws for a system that does nothing more than causes new accounts to be created, that's it, that's all the current system does.

(SOGA) SouthernBoy の投稿を引用：

" Being able to buy your way out of a ban realistically changes absolutely nothing, it only eliminates the need to make new accounts, that's it. "

Are you kidding me ? LOL Changes nothing ????

What is does is what others has already said, that it would show that as long as you have money, you can cheat as much as you can afford, and hides the fact that you are a cheater.

This would be a blessing for the cheater, and can cause legit players to lose faith in VAC, in Valve, and even providers of such products.

EX: A cheater admits hes cheats then pays a dollar amount to have his record esponged.

What about justice for the people who was harmed by your cheats and may not play again that game and or buy that game newer version becuase of this incident (lost monies for developers). Plus, now you are clean and can do it again, just for what ever reason you may have, and no one knows that it is you, just because of money. (Not to mention the moral idea of good and bad)

Changes Nothing !! Get REAL

You can still cheat and hide the fact you are a cheater by doing so on other accounts, your entire paragraph was just negated.

Try again please.

[Satoru]

Nya` の投稿を引用：

.Like previously stated it's an illusion, the outcome is still exactly the same without all the run around. Being able to continually cheat spanning different accounts has the same effect as cheating on one account, buying a license again and then proceeding to do it again.

But again you're not looking at WHY they're doing it. You've not addressed my core thesis. Which not the outcome. It is how users perceive and trust the system

People needing to feel that users get banned in laughable, VAC is already a third rate ACS coupled with the fact that if you get banned you can be back to cheating in less than five minutes in and of itself provides no reassurances in its integrity of any kind.

Your scenario is true of ALL anti-cheat protocols. How is VAC any different. All systems cheaters would buy a new game. If you can can override an existing ban, why ban users at all. It means tehre's no functional punishment for cheating.

You guys are grasping at straws for a system that does nothing more than causes new accounts to be created, that's it, that's all the current system does.

If that's your thesis then on the one hand you have

1) Create new account

2) Use existing account.

I think most people would agree that #2 is by far the WORSE option than option #1. It implies there is no PUNISHMENT for cheating. The punishment is a ban from the service which is permanent. If there's not punishment even if the cirumvention is trivial, then why have the sytem at all.

Again the creation of new accounts isn't a huge burden. But the flip side is that confidence in the ban system is maintanined. As there are many thread and requets for user A to be banned, it's fairly obvious that people WANT there to be bans, and for such punishments to be appropriate for the user. you dismiss these concerns yet a quick perusal of many popular online games and multi-player games shows that this demand exists and is absolutely important to the communities of all multi-player games.

You can argue the effectiveness of VAC to whatever you like. But the punishment is 100% consistent with every other anti-cheat program in existence. Users a banned. Permanently. Therefore you must come up with a reasoning for why ALL anti-cheat programs operate in this way, and instead then come up with a reason as to why they should switch to a different methodology for dealing with cheaters.

[nya[dc]]

Satoru の投稿を引用：

But again you're not looking at WHY they're doing it. You've not addressed my core thesis. Which not the outcome. It is how users perceive and trust the system

People needing to feel that users get banned in laughable, VAC is already a third rate ACS coupled with the fact that if you get banned you can be back to cheating in less than five minutes in and of itself provides no reassurances in its integrity of any kind.

Your scenario is true of ALL anti-cheat protocols. How is VAC any different. All systems cheaters would buy a new game. If you can can override an existing ban, why ban users at all. It means tehre's no functional punishment for cheating.

If that's your thesis then on the one hand you have

1) Create new account

2) Use existing account.

I think most people would agree that #2 is by far the WORSE option than option #1. It implies there is no PUNISHMENT for cheating. The punishment is a ban from the service which is permanent. If there's not punishment even if the cirumvention is trivial, then why have the sytem at all.

Again the creation of new accounts isn't a huge burden. But the flip side is that confidence in the ban system is maintanined. As there are many thread and requets for user A to be banned, it's fairly obvious that people WANT there to be bans, and for such punishments to be appropriate for the user. you dismiss these concerns yet a quick perusal of many popular online games and multi-player games shows that this demand exists and is absolutely important to the communities of all multi-player games.

You can argue the effectiveness of VAC to whatever you like. But the punishment is 100% consistent with every other anti-cheat program in existence. Users a banned. Permanently. Therefore you must come up with a reasoning for why ALL anti-cheat programs operate in this way, and instead then come up with a reason as to why they should switch to a different methodology for dealing with cheaters.

I don't know how this can be made more clear, a ban and trust in this system are an illusion for ignorant people, it's not actually accomplishing anything.

To me, a person who knows the ins and outs of this system is there any difference between a license being revoked caused by a VAC ban which can be overriden by purchasing the license again versus just purchasing a license on a new account? Of course not, is there a difference to ignorant people? Sure because they are ignorant, does that perception have any bearing on what is actually happening? Again, of course not.

People placing false trust into something because they are ignorant is irrelevant to what is happening, their trust doesn't change what is going on. Does their trust change that people who get VAC banned just make a new account and repeat the cycle? No, does it change that the person has to purchase a license again? No..

This ignorance is a shield and an excuse to perpetuate a moot argument, I know damn well as much as you do that it's doing nothing. What have Valve employees and moderators said on countless occasions when someone is VAC banned and they want to keep playing?

Let me paraphrase what we both already know...

You can no longer play in VAC secured servers on this account for that specific game or game engine. If you would like to continue playing on VAC secured servers you must make a new account, repurchase the game(s) and then you will be able to.

That is the reality, they are told to make a new account, spend more money on a new license and thus are free to cheat or not cheat again. It's absolutely no different than if they had just said "Purchase a new license on your account, the VAC ban will be removed and you are free to play in VAC secured servers again".

It's already a pay to cheat system, we all know that, this just removes the completely pointless middleman being new account creation. Hell my other idea like I said would fit in perfectly with this, get VAC banned? Want to keep your existing account and have the VAC ban removed? Spend $100 to remove the ban and on top of that repurchase the license, if it's not worth it to you just go make another account anyways like you would have to begin with...

It's a pointless system, it's a worthless system, it's an ineffective system, it's a pay to cheat system...

This doesn't change that, it doesn't add or take away from that in any way, it just gets rid of the ridiculous need to make a new account.

[(SOGA) SouthernBoy]

Originally posted by (SOGA) SouthernBoy:
" Being able to buy your way out of a ban realistically changes absolutely nothing, it only eliminates the need to make new accounts, that's it. "

Are you kidding me ? LOL Changes nothing ????

What is does is what others has already said, that it would show that as long as you have money, you can cheat as much as you can afford, and hides the fact that you are a cheater.

This would be a blessing for the cheater, and can cause legit players to lose faith in VAC, in Valve, and even providers of such products.

EX: A cheater admits hes cheats then pays a dollar amount to have his record esponged.

What about justice for the people who was harmed by your cheats and may not play again that game and or buy that game newer version becuase of this incident (lost monies for developers). Plus, now you are clean and can do it again, just for what ever reason you may have, and no one knows that it is you, just because of money. (Not to mention the moral idea of good and bad)

Changes Nothing !! Get REAL

You can still cheat and hide the fact you are a cheater by doing so on other accounts, your entire paragraph was just negated.

Try again please.
Last edited by Nya`; 4 hours ago

Wow, like i said in my first response, I am for a notation of the ban for the game no matter what or how many times u buy the game for a new account, so this will nullified your suggestion in the first place.

As to to your response to the above statements made by me, you are just wrong to say that they was negated and try again. The statements are true and to the point of why not to do as to what you have suggested. The point is that cheaters can buy games on new accounts and hide their cheating activities, and you wish to allow this by clearing ban on thier account by buying games. This is faulty and can be considered dam right decitful, and leaves the impression that we support those who cheats as long as they give us money. You are just wrong to even suggest such a policy period. Hopes this clears this up for you.

[Satoru]

Nya, we are not discussing the 'effectiveness' of VAC. No matter how you feel about VAC, that's not the issue here and isn't relevant to the policy.

This policy is exactly the same across every anti-cheat enabled multi player game. Thus I will rephrase the question that you will need to answer.

Should VAC/Warden/BattleEye/EAC/ESEA allow users to buy out their banned accounts?

Please feel free to explain why the answer to this question is yes. Again the effectiveness of various anti-cheat mechanisms is NOT RELEVANT to this policy. Thus any argument about how sucky VAC is, isn't relevant here.

[nya[dc]]

Satoru の投稿を引用：

Nya, we are not discussing the 'effectiveness' of VAC. No matter how you feel about VAC, that's not the issue here and isn't relevant to the policy.

This policy is exactly the same across every anti-cheat enabled multi player game. Thus I will rephrase the question that you will need to answer.

Should VAC/Warden/BattleEye/EAC/ESEA allow users to buy out their banned accounts?

Please feel free to explain why the answer to this question is yes. Again the effectiveness of various anti-cheat mechanisms is NOT RELEVANT to this policy. Thus any argument about how sucky VAC is, isn't relevant here.

You clearly didn't read my post at all, I didn't say a thing about its effectiveness lol not to mention the policy of other Anti-Cheat's in relation to this one have no relevance.

P.S. ESEA only bans people for a year.

[Legendary old man]

If buying the game on a new account is the same as resetting the ban on the old account then there is no need to change anything, is there? This is not going to change. A lot of people in this thread typing before they think.

[nya[dc]]

facedown の投稿を引用：

If buying the game on a new account is the same as resetting the ban on the old account then there is no need to change anything, is there? This is not going to change. A lot of people in this thread typing before they think.

If the same end result can be accomplished then there is no need to add unnecessary steps to the process no matter how small they may be.

[Satoru]

ESEA doesn't let you 'buy out' your ban either regardless of the ban length

[nya[dc]]

Satoru の投稿を引用：

ESEA doesn't let you 'buy out' your ban either regardless of the ban length

Of course it doesn't, if you are banned from ESEA they ban your IP, Steam ID and your hardware ID's. These can obviously be changed and evaded but the point is they don't want you back in that year. Valve doesn't have anything like that and they have officially stated on multiple occasions like I already said and you are well aware of...

You can no longer play in VAC secured servers on this account for that specific game or game engine. If you would like to continue playing on VAC secured servers you must make a new account, repurchase the game(s) and then you will be able to.

Which translates into buying out your ban, does it not? What good is a permanent ban if there is no enforcement behind it and the company tells you themself just to create a new account and buy the games again...