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BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 19일 오후 8시 06분
Kernel Level Anti-Cheat working alongside VAC
They should implement Kernel Level AC in CS 2 MM since that until to this day the game still infested with cheaters but when comes with Face IT, significantly there are super less cheaters that we met and specially Valorant Anti-Cheat for 3 years the Kernel Anti-Cheat nothing happened on my Privacy and so sure streamers using their PC with Valorant nothing happened aswell. so that they should implement a VAC Kernel Level Anti-Cheat or better probably KLAC and VAC working together.
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첫 게시자: Randy Bobandy:
TL;DR bullet points, if you don't want to read the word vomit -
  • I'm fine with Kernel level anti-cheat.
  • Most common privacy concerns can also be exploited just the same with Ring 3 access(I am deeply simplifying this)
  • Allowing Ring 0 access to anti-cheat on your system(or any non essential software/drivers for that matter), requires an extremely high level of trust in the devs of that software
  • Kernel level anti cheat is a grey area
  • Cheaters are much less prevalent in games that use Kernel level anti-cheats in my experience
  • Pretty much every popular multiplayer game uses a Kernel level anti cheat with varying results, except CS which VAC only has Ring 3 access.

From what I understand about the x86 protection ring

Even programs running with Ring 3 privilege can see/interact with all the same things the user can and even record it and phone home with it IF the developers want, so the whole privacy point about Ring 0 AC is to a degree moot. While Ring 0 AC can turn your entire PC into an open book for developers(and potential intruders if you go to shady sites and download shady programs or generally don't exercise due diligence for your own protection), the majority of privacy concerns are going to be just as easily accessible with Ring 3 access. Or, if you really do have privacy concerns, just don't use windows.

Also keep in mind, every game you play that uses;

Easy Anti-Cheat easily the most popular, used by Apex, BattleBit, Dead By Daylight, Halo:MCC, FortniteBR, and Rust.

BattleEye used by Ark, DayZ, EFT, Destiny 2, and R6 Siege. DISCLAIMER ABOUT EFT: EFT is a good example for Kernel level AC not being perfect or the end-all-be-all to cheaters. In my 1200 hours on EFT since 2018/2019 the situation had gotten considerably worse before I stopped playing entirely, but that's on Battlestate Games/BattleEye to keep updated with the trends.

PunkBuster probably one of the oldest AC's, used by the Battlefield series before 2042, Assassins Creed 3/4/bhood/revelations, and Far Cry 1-3.

are all using Kernel-level anti-cheats. Do you play Faceit? ESEA? They use Kernel level anti cheat as well. Or if you play CoD they use their own in house AC called Ricochet(That an employee did leak the actual driver from to cheat devs) which combines server-side AC and a client-side Kernel level driver(if I'm reading and understand the FAQ correctly). If you play any of those you can't really complain about Valve making their own Kernel level anti-cheat for CS2. I will say, in my personal opinion Riot Vanguard is just a bit overboard being that it runs as soon as your system boots into Windows, all the others only run when a game that uses them launches.

I'm okay with Kernel level anti-cheat myself, as long as the agreement between dev and the user is explicit in access levels and/or what they will be allowing the software to do. When I play games that have them I notice cheaters are very far and few between, don't get me wrong they're not the end-all-be-all or perfect solution, and I completely understand why some people may not be okay with them. But from what I have read CS2 cheats are Kernel level which would make it extremely difficult for VAC to do much about because being a software limited to working in Ring 3, it can't (or shouldn't) be able to read/interact with anything under its privilege. However and please correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing VAC should be able to detect is the GUI of the cheat and/or if the cheat is injecting anything into the game. Which can probably be spoofed anyways, I'm not that knowledgeable about cheats, I used one once in MW3 raging and never again.

Honestly, Kernel level anti-cheat is a grey area and not quite as black and white as a lot of people believe. On the one hand yes, it would be nice to be able to have the population of cheaters in multiplayer games be as minimal as possible, but on the other are you willing to give the highest level of privilege to that software? It's an extreme level of trust being asked of the user to allow that, and in my personal experience I have never had a single issue where I have believed, been lead to believe, or even suspected that my privacy was in jeopardy by allowing Kernel level anti-cheat on my system. They do have to pass a windows driver signing/verification before Microsoft will allow them to be installed on a system.

Sorry that this is a bit long winded, but after seeing argument after argument after argument about Kernel level anti-cheats and reading the views/opinions from both sides I thought I may add some input to this, please feel free to correct me on anything I may not be understanding fully, or wrong about. Also before it gets mentioned (just in case) Ring 1 and 2 don't really matter in this situation Windows only uses ring 0 for drivers(since Microsoft REQUIRES driver signing/validation) and ring 3 for everything else.

and for the record I DO NOT BELIEVE VALVE WOULD CONSIDER DEVELOPING RING 0 ANTI-CHEAT SOFTWARE this is all purely what I understand about the concept, and my opinion on the matter.
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BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 30분 
Brogue Man님이 먼저 게시:
Valorant anti-cheat sucks. I have had it blue screen my PC multiple times when I have tried to exit vanguard.

never happened to me
#61
.EteRnal. 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 34분 
Fr4ntic님이 먼저 게시:
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:

You mean some of them are trolling?

So ppl who dont agree with you are trolling, yeah that will defitnitly make you sound like your open to a civil discussion.
It was pretty evident from the beginning that there wouldn't be an actual conversation. OP came here looking for an echo chamber, and anybody who doesn't agree with them is a Cheat Developer, Cheater, or "Karenized" whatever that even means...
.EteRnal. 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 35분
#62
Fr4ntic 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 34분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
Fr4ntic님이 먼저 게시:

So ppl who dont agree with you are trolling, yeah that will defitnitly make you sound like your open to a civil discussion.

Well i can recognize who are trolling vs who are againts with it

First off no you cant but be my guest enlighten how would you do that ?

Second I could say the same about the ppl being for kernel in that thread.
#63
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 39분 
.EteRnal.님이 먼저 게시:
Fr4ntic님이 먼저 게시:

So ppl who dont agree with you are trolling, yeah that will defitnitly make you sound like your open to a civil discussion.
It was pretty evident from the beginning that there wouldn't be an actual conversation. OP came here looking for an echo chamber, and anybody who doesn't agree with them is a Cheat Developer, Cheater, or "Karenized" whatever that even means...

It's evident alswell that you downplay Kernel with "Privacy" stuff which Karen people always came out on their mind. additionally you didn't even disproved that Valorant AC Is successful.
#64
Snaggle 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 42분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
additionally you didn't even disproved that Valorant AC Is successful.
And you still haven't proved that the majority want this kind of anti-cheat. Just "I did research" which is... not evidence.
#65
.EteRnal. 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 43분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
.EteRnal.님이 먼저 게시:
It was pretty evident from the beginning that there wouldn't be an actual conversation. OP came here looking for an echo chamber, and anybody who doesn't agree with them is a Cheat Developer, Cheater, or "Karenized" whatever that even means...

It's evident alswell that you downplay Kernel with "Privacy" stuff which Karen people always came out on their mind. additionally you didn't even disproved that Valorant AC Is successful.
Probably because my arguments against it did not involve how effective it is in preventing cheating. You would know that if you actually read my post.
.EteRnal. 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 43분
#66
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 46분 
Snaggle님이 먼저 게시:
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
additionally you didn't even disproved that Valorant AC Is successful.
And you still haven't proved that the majority want this kind of anti-cheat. Just "I did research" which is... not evidence.

I already Proved it, go check what i replied before and studied it with your own. so that next time youll want Kernel AC
#67
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 49분 
.EteRnal.님이 먼저 게시:
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:

It's evident alswell that you downplay Kernel with "Privacy" stuff which Karen people always came out on their mind. additionally you didn't even disproved that Valorant AC Is successful.
Probably because my arguments against it did not involve how effective it is in preventing cheating. You would know that if you actually read my post.

I would agree with you if the year was 2018 and information is open as now. but its already Proven that its working "Preventing" Cheaters "Significantly"
#68
.EteRnal. 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 51분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
.EteRnal.님이 먼저 게시:
Probably because my arguments against it did not involve how effective it is in preventing cheating. You would know that if you actually read my post.

I would agree with you if the year was 2018 and information is open as now. but its already Proven that its working "Preventing" Cheaters "Significantly"
Again, you aren't reading.
#69
Snaggle 2023년 10월 20일 오전 6시 58분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
I already Proved it, go check what i replied before and studied it with your own.
Still not proof. Still waiting.
#70
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 7시 04분 
Snaggle님이 먼저 게시:
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
I already Proved it, go check what i replied before and studied it with your own.
Still not proof. Still waiting.

It's already told you stuff all you do by yourself is Research or Study that is realistic.
#71
Fr4ntic 2023년 10월 20일 오전 7시 11분 
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:
Snaggle님이 먼저 게시:
Still not proof. Still waiting.

It's already told you stuff all you do by yourself is Research or Study that is realistic.

So one can just claim something and the other person has to do the research for it , not how it works you have the burdon of proof if you claim something you have to proof it.
#72
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 7시 16분 
Fr4ntic님이 먼저 게시:
BLoCKANDLOADED님이 먼저 게시:

It's already told you stuff all you do by yourself is Research or Study that is realistic.

So one can just claim something and the other person has to do the research for it , not how it works you have the burdon of proof if you claim something you have to proof it.

Already gave a bunch of proof, now they need to research further about Riot safeguarding their users Privacy :)
#73
ReBoot 2023년 10월 20일 오전 7시 18분 
Vanguard, of all things, is know to less with non-cheat software, I even with non-gaming-related software and Riot's documentation reads like this is rather intentional.

If you're gonna worship kernel-level ACs, why not pick one that has less controversy?
#74
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 2023년 10월 20일 오전 7시 24분 
ReBoot님이 먼저 게시:
Vanguard, of all things, is know to less with non-cheat software, I even with non-gaming-related software and Riot's documentation reads like this is rather intentional.

If you're gonna worship kernel-level ACs, why not pick one that has less controversy?

1. 3 Years playing with it, I have no problems, Haven't met any cheaters in "MY REGION"
2. Friend Used it [ No Riot Employee Sniff weird stuff on his PC ]
3. For your sake "I know Someone"
4. Streamer and Pro players has no leakage or what so ever
5. More proof
#75
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모든 토론 > Steam 포럼 > VAC Discussion > 제목 정보
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