Toutes les discussions > Forums Steam > VAC Discussion > Détails du sujet
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 19 oct. 2023 à 20h06
Kernel Level Anti-Cheat working alongside VAC
They should implement Kernel Level AC in CS 2 MM since that until to this day the game still infested with cheaters but when comes with Face IT, significantly there are super less cheaters that we met and specially Valorant Anti-Cheat for 3 years the Kernel Anti-Cheat nothing happened on my Privacy and so sure streamers using their PC with Valorant nothing happened aswell. so that they should implement a VAC Kernel Level Anti-Cheat or better probably KLAC and VAC working together.
L'auteur(e) de ce sujet a indiqué qu'un message a répondu à sa question.
Cliquez ici pour accéder à ce message.
Écrit par Randy Bobandy:
TL;DR bullet points, if you don't want to read the word vomit -
  • I'm fine with Kernel level anti-cheat.
  • Most common privacy concerns can also be exploited just the same with Ring 3 access(I am deeply simplifying this)
  • Allowing Ring 0 access to anti-cheat on your system(or any non essential software/drivers for that matter), requires an extremely high level of trust in the devs of that software
  • Kernel level anti cheat is a grey area
  • Cheaters are much less prevalent in games that use Kernel level anti-cheats in my experience
  • Pretty much every popular multiplayer game uses a Kernel level anti cheat with varying results, except CS which VAC only has Ring 3 access.

From what I understand about the x86 protection ring

Even programs running with Ring 3 privilege can see/interact with all the same things the user can and even record it and phone home with it IF the developers want, so the whole privacy point about Ring 0 AC is to a degree moot. While Ring 0 AC can turn your entire PC into an open book for developers(and potential intruders if you go to shady sites and download shady programs or generally don't exercise due diligence for your own protection), the majority of privacy concerns are going to be just as easily accessible with Ring 3 access. Or, if you really do have privacy concerns, just don't use windows.

Also keep in mind, every game you play that uses;

Easy Anti-Cheat easily the most popular, used by Apex, BattleBit, Dead By Daylight, Halo:MCC, FortniteBR, and Rust.

BattleEye used by Ark, DayZ, EFT, Destiny 2, and R6 Siege. DISCLAIMER ABOUT EFT: EFT is a good example for Kernel level AC not being perfect or the end-all-be-all to cheaters. In my 1200 hours on EFT since 2018/2019 the situation had gotten considerably worse before I stopped playing entirely, but that's on Battlestate Games/BattleEye to keep updated with the trends.

PunkBuster probably one of the oldest AC's, used by the Battlefield series before 2042, Assassins Creed 3/4/bhood/revelations, and Far Cry 1-3.

are all using Kernel-level anti-cheats. Do you play Faceit? ESEA? They use Kernel level anti cheat as well. Or if you play CoD they use their own in house AC called Ricochet(That an employee did leak the actual driver from to cheat devs) which combines server-side AC and a client-side Kernel level driver(if I'm reading and understand the FAQ correctly). If you play any of those you can't really complain about Valve making their own Kernel level anti-cheat for CS2. I will say, in my personal opinion Riot Vanguard is just a bit overboard being that it runs as soon as your system boots into Windows, all the others only run when a game that uses them launches.

I'm okay with Kernel level anti-cheat myself, as long as the agreement between dev and the user is explicit in access levels and/or what they will be allowing the software to do. When I play games that have them I notice cheaters are very far and few between, don't get me wrong they're not the end-all-be-all or perfect solution, and I completely understand why some people may not be okay with them. But from what I have read CS2 cheats are Kernel level which would make it extremely difficult for VAC to do much about because being a software limited to working in Ring 3, it can't (or shouldn't) be able to read/interact with anything under its privilege. However and please correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing VAC should be able to detect is the GUI of the cheat and/or if the cheat is injecting anything into the game. Which can probably be spoofed anyways, I'm not that knowledgeable about cheats, I used one once in MW3 raging and never again.

Honestly, Kernel level anti-cheat is a grey area and not quite as black and white as a lot of people believe. On the one hand yes, it would be nice to be able to have the population of cheaters in multiplayer games be as minimal as possible, but on the other are you willing to give the highest level of privilege to that software? It's an extreme level of trust being asked of the user to allow that, and in my personal experience I have never had a single issue where I have believed, been lead to believe, or even suspected that my privacy was in jeopardy by allowing Kernel level anti-cheat on my system. They do have to pass a windows driver signing/verification before Microsoft will allow them to be installed on a system.

Sorry that this is a bit long winded, but after seeing argument after argument after argument about Kernel level anti-cheats and reading the views/opinions from both sides I thought I may add some input to this, please feel free to correct me on anything I may not be understanding fully, or wrong about. Also before it gets mentioned (just in case) Ring 1 and 2 don't really matter in this situation Windows only uses ring 0 for drivers(since Microsoft REQUIRES driver signing/validation) and ring 3 for everything else.

and for the record I DO NOT BELIEVE VALVE WOULD CONSIDER DEVELOPING RING 0 ANTI-CHEAT SOFTWARE this is all purely what I understand about the concept, and my opinion on the matter.
< >
Affichage des commentaires 16 à 30 sur 94
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 19 oct. 2023 à 21h31 
blunus a écrit :
Sure, whatever you say. Since you seem have no knowledge of Kernel ACs and how they work, I guess I'm out.

Spitting out "you have no knowedge" because im insisting them to have one. One kind of a Karenized response there mate.
#16
Snivy 19 oct. 2023 à 22h24 
Ah the good old times. Back when ESEA used their anticheat client for bitcoin mining.
#17
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 19 oct. 2023 à 22h27 
Snivy a écrit :
Ah the good old times. Back when ESEA used their anticheat client for bitcoin mining.

It was 2013 old stuff
#18
Snivy 19 oct. 2023 à 22h29 
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
Snivy a écrit :
Ah the good old times. Back when ESEA used their anticheat client for bitcoin mining.

It was 2013 old stuff
Doesn't mean it can't happen again.
#19
Vertigo 19 oct. 2023 à 22h30 
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
.EteRnal. a écrit :

1. How are you going to "safeguard your security" if a security vulnerability is found?
2. You can "exit" it but that doesn't mean it's not still present in a highly privileged state.
3. Breaches can happen to any company or system. Valve is no different. No system is 100% secure.
4. Just because it reduced cheating doesn't make it a good solution.
5. I can find just as many against the idea.


Somehow i agree with on your 1 - 4 answer, but on number 5 not so much since many people wanted a better Anti-Cheat which is Kernel Level AC

I don't want it, so you are already in the minority here.

Stop being such a Karen and accept your flawed bias.
#20
Ettanin 19 oct. 2023 à 22h33 
https://www.trendmicro.com/en_us/research/22/h/ransomware-actor-abuses-genshin-impact-anti-cheat-driver-to-kill-antivirus.html

this is what ring 0 spyware gets you.
#21
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 19 oct. 2023 à 22h49 
Vertigo a écrit :
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :


Somehow i agree with on your 1 - 4 answer, but on number 5 not so much since many people wanted a better Anti-Cheat which is Kernel Level AC

I don't want it, so you are already in the minority here.

Stop being such a Karen and accept your flawed bias.

I accept it on this VAC discussion forum, but on Counter Strike 2 and other forums many people want it
#22
.EteRnal. 19 oct. 2023 à 23h06 
Ettanin a écrit :
https://www.trendmicro.com/en_us/research/22/h/ransomware-actor-abuses-genshin-impact-anti-cheat-driver-to-kill-antivirus.html

this is what ring 0 spyware gets you.
I figured it was just a matter of time until something like this happened...
#23
cOb 19 oct. 2023 à 23h21 
.EteRnal. a écrit :
No they shouldn't. The best part of VAC is that it is not invasive and respects privacy.
facts
#24
Snivy 20 oct. 2023 à 1h27 
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
Vertigo a écrit :

I don't want it, so you are already in the minority here.

Stop being such a Karen and accept your flawed bias.

I accept it on this VAC discussion forum, but on Counter Strike 2 and other forums many people want it
Many as in? 10 usere on a forum post ain't many. Even if it was 1.000 that wouldn't put you into the majority and not everyone uses the forums regularly.
People usually only come to the forums to share their problems.
#25
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 20 oct. 2023 à 1h36 
Snivy a écrit :
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :

I accept it on this VAC discussion forum, but on Counter Strike 2 and other forums many people want it
Many as in? 10 usere on a forum post ain't many. Even if it was 1.000 that wouldn't put you into the majority and not everyone uses the forums regularly.
People usually only come to the forums to share their problems.

Check Pro players and other content creator who aren't cheaters and karens wants it. i know some cheat developers commenting on my post
#26
.EteRnal. 20 oct. 2023 à 2h15 
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
Snivy a écrit :
Many as in? 10 usere on a forum post ain't many. Even if it was 1.000 that wouldn't put you into the majority and not everyone uses the forums regularly.
People usually only come to the forums to share their problems.

Check Pro players and other content creator who aren't cheaters and karens wants it. i know some cheat developers commenting on my post
You're accusing people here of being cheat developers for disagreeing with you? It's clear you're just looking for an echo chamber rather than an actual discussion.
#27
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 20 oct. 2023 à 2h22 
.EteRnal. a écrit :
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :

Check Pro players and other content creator who aren't cheaters and karens wants it. i know some cheat developers commenting on my post
You're accusing people here of being cheat developers for disagreeing with you? It's clear you're just looking for an echo chamber rather than an actual discussion.

Sorry for being paranoid then, ive been a rat with them anyways ;)
#28
Snaggle 20 oct. 2023 à 2h32 
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
Check Pro players and other content creator who aren't cheaters and karens wants it.
Ok. But pro players and content creators are a tiny, tiny fraction of the playerbase. And most will just echo opinions without understanding the full scope of what they want.
#29
BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ 20 oct. 2023 à 2h38 
Snaggle a écrit :
BLoCKANDLOADED a écrit :
Check Pro players and other content creator who aren't cheaters and karens wants it.
Ok. But pro players and content creators are a tiny, tiny fraction of the playerbase. And most will just echo opinions without understanding the full scope of what they want.

Your claim doesnt prove anything, most of us want Kernel Level AC
#30
< >
Affichage des commentaires 16 à 30 sur 94
Par page : 1530 50

Toutes les discussions > Forums Steam > VAC Discussion > Détails du sujet
Posté le 19 oct. 2023 à 20h06
Messages : 94
Nouvelle discussion

Procédures à suivre et règles des discussions