Kernel Level Anti-Cheat working alongside VAC

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BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:06pm

They should implement Kernel Level AC in CS 2 MM since that until to this day the game still infested with cheaters but when comes with Face IT, significantly there are super less cheaters that we met and specially Valorant Anti-Cheat for 3 years the Kernel Anti-Cheat nothing happened on my Privacy and so sure streamers using their PC with Valorant nothing happened aswell. so that they should implement a VAC Kernel Level Anti-Cheat or better probably KLAC and VAC working together.

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Originally posted by Randy Bobandy:

TL;DR bullet points, if you don't want to read the word vomit -

I'm fine with Kernel level anti-cheat.
Most common privacy concerns can also be exploited just the same with Ring 3 access(I am deeply simplifying this)
Allowing Ring 0 access to anti-cheat on your system(or any non essential software/drivers for that matter), requires an extremely high level of trust in the devs of that software
Kernel level anti cheat is a grey area
Cheaters are much less prevalent in games that use Kernel level anti-cheats in my experience
Pretty much every popular multiplayer game uses a Kernel level anti cheat with varying results, except CS which VAC only has Ring 3 access.

From what I understand about the x86 protection ring

Even programs running with Ring 3 privilege can see/interact with all the same things the user can and even record it and phone home with it IF the developers want, so the whole privacy point about Ring 0 AC is to a degree moot. While Ring 0 AC can turn your entire PC into an open book for developers(and potential intruders if you go to shady sites and download shady programs or generally don't exercise due diligence for your own protection), the majority of privacy concerns are going to be just as easily accessible with Ring 3 access. Or, if you really do have privacy concerns, just don't use windows.

Also keep in mind, every game you play that uses;

Easy Anti-Cheat easily the most popular, used by Apex, BattleBit, Dead By Daylight, Halo:MCC, FortniteBR, and Rust.

BattleEye used by Ark, DayZ, EFT, Destiny 2, and R6 Siege. DISCLAIMER ABOUT EFT: EFT is a good example for Kernel level AC not being perfect or the end-all-be-all to cheaters. In my 1200 hours on EFT since 2018/2019 the situation had gotten considerably worse before I stopped playing entirely, but that's on Battlestate Games/BattleEye to keep updated with the trends.

PunkBuster probably one of the oldest AC's, used by the Battlefield series before 2042, Assassins Creed 3/4/bhood/revelations, and Far Cry 1-3.

are all using Kernel-level anti-cheats. Do you play Faceit? ESEA? They use Kernel level anti cheat as well. Or if you play CoD they use their own in house AC called Ricochet(That an employee did leak the actual driver from to cheat devs) which combines server-side AC and a client-side Kernel level driver(if I'm reading and understand the FAQ correctly). If you play any of those you can't really complain about Valve making their own Kernel level anti-cheat for CS2. I will say, in my personal opinion Riot Vanguard is just a bit overboard being that it runs as soon as your system boots into Windows, all the others only run when a game that uses them launches.

I'm okay with Kernel level anti-cheat myself, as long as the agreement between dev and the user is explicit in access levels and/or what they will be allowing the software to do. When I play games that have them I notice cheaters are very far and few between, don't get me wrong they're not the end-all-be-all or perfect solution, and I completely understand why some people may not be okay with them. But from what I have read CS2 cheats are Kernel level which would make it extremely difficult for VAC to do much about because being a software limited to working in Ring 3, it can't (or shouldn't) be able to read/interact with anything under its privilege. However and please correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing VAC should be able to detect is the GUI of the cheat and/or if the cheat is injecting anything into the game. Which can probably be spoofed anyways, I'm not that knowledgeable about cheats, I used one once in MW3 raging and never again.

Honestly, Kernel level anti-cheat is a grey area and not quite as black and white as a lot of people believe. On the one hand yes, it would be nice to be able to have the population of cheaters in multiplayer games be as minimal as possible, but on the other are you willing to give the highest level of privilege to that software? It's an extreme level of trust being asked of the user to allow that, and in my personal experience I have never had a single issue where I have believed, been lead to believe, or even suspected that my privacy was in jeopardy by allowing Kernel level anti-cheat on my system. They do have to pass a windows driver signing/verification before Microsoft will allow them to be installed on a system.

Sorry that this is a bit long winded, but after seeing argument after argument after argument about Kernel level anti-cheats and reading the views/opinions from both sides I thought I may add some input to this, please feel free to correct me on anything I may not be understanding fully, or wrong about. Also before it gets mentioned (just in case) Ring 1 and 2 don't really matter in this situation Windows only uses ring 0 for drivers(since Microsoft REQUIRES driver signing/validation) and ring 3 for everything else.

and for the record I DO NOT BELIEVE VALVE WOULD CONSIDER DEVELOPING RING 0 ANTI-CHEAT SOFTWARE this is all purely what I understand about the concept, and my opinion on the matter.

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Showing 1-15 of 94 comments

.EteRnal. Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:08pm

No they shouldn't. The best part of VAC is that it is not invasive and respects privacy.

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:09pm

Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
No they shouldn't. The best part of VAC is that it is not invasive and respects privacy.

Why would it cause some privacy issue? hence it was proven with Valorant AC and Face IT CS.

.EteRnal. Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:10pm

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:
Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
No they shouldn't. The best part of VAC is that it is not invasive and respects privacy.

Why would it cause some privacy issue? hence it was proven with Valorant AC and Face IT CS.

Programs running in ring 0 have full and complete access to anything on the system.

Last edited by .EteRnal.; Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:13pm

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:13pm

Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:

Why would it cause some privacy issue? hence it was proven with Valorant AC and Face IT CS.
Programs that run in ring 0 have full and complete access to anything on the system.

Why would you think a Valve employee would sniff your weird browsing history?

Kernel Level Anti-Cheat proven ALREADY in Valorant, it decreases a significant amount of cheaters that they tend to cheat developers to work on DMA or 2nd PC cheats. because cheap ass internal/external would get detected instantly

This is the same as CS Face IT.

Karenized "Privacy" Statement i guess

.EteRnal. Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:19pm

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:
Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
Programs that run in ring 0 have full and complete access to anything on the system.

Why would you think a Valve employee would sniff your weird browsing history?

Kernel Level Anti-Cheat proven ALREADY in Valorant, it decreases a significant amount of cheaters that they tend to cheat developers to work on DMA or 2nd PC cheats. because cheap ass internal/external would get detected instantly

This is the same as CS Face IT.

Karenized "Privacy" Statement i guess

First off, the Steam Discussions are not an echo chamber, so stop expecting everybody to agree with you without question. There are many reasons why ring-0 anti-cheats are a bad idea aside from privacy. Drop the attitude.

Last edited by .EteRnal.; Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:20pm

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:21pm

Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:

Why would you think a Valve employee would sniff your weird browsing history?

Kernel Level Anti-Cheat proven ALREADY in Valorant, it decreases a significant amount of cheaters that they tend to cheat developers to work on DMA or 2nd PC cheats. because cheap ass internal/external would get detected instantly

This is the same as CS Face IT.

Karenized "Privacy" Statement i guess
First off the Steam Discussions are not an echo chamber so stop expecting everybody to agree with you without question. There are many reasons why ring-0 anti-cheats are a bad idea aside from privacy. Drop the attitude.

And coming back to your answer not everyone will agree with you.

1. People know how to safeguard their own security
2. You can exit the Kernel Anti-Cheat
3. Valve as corporate company knows how to protect your data
4. Worked with other games.
5. many people voicing out for a Kernel AC

.EteRnal. Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:30pm

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:
And coming back to your answer not everyone will agree with you.

1. People know how to safeguard their own security
2. You can exit the Kernel Anti-Cheat
3. Valve as corporate company knows how to protect your data
4. Worked with other games.
5. many people voicing out for a Kernel AC

1. How are you going to "safeguard your security" if a security vulnerability is found?
2. You can "exit" it but that doesn't mean it's not still present in a highly privileged state.
3. Breaches can happen to any company or system. Valve is no different. No system is 100% secure.
4. Just because it reduced cheating doesn't make it a good solution.
5. I can find just as many against the idea.

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:32pm

Originally posted by .EteRnal.:
Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED:
And coming back to your answer not everyone will agree with you.

1. People know how to safeguard their own security
2. You can exit the Kernel Anti-Cheat
3. Valve as corporate company knows how to protect your data
4. Worked with other games.
5. many people voicing out for a Kernel AC

1. How are you going to "safeguard your security" if a security vulnerability is found?
2. You can "exit" it but that doesn't mean it's not still present in a highly privileged state.
3. Breaches can happen to any company or system. Valve is no different. No system is 100% secure.
4. Just because it reduced cheating doesn't make it a good solution.
5. I can find just as many against the idea.

Somehow i agree with on your 1 - 4 answer, but on number 5 not so much since many people wanted a better Anti-Cheat which is Kernel Level AC

blunus Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:00pm

VAC is working as intended fine. Can't you see threads in this forum?

Valorant's AC is literal spyware, just like other kernel ACs.

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:03pm

Originally posted by blunus:
VAC is working as intended fine. Can't you see threads in this forum?

Valorant's AC is literal spyware, just like other kernel ACs.

VAC only works on Internal cheats most likely and somehow harder to detect External and DMA Cheats which make CS Infested.

One of the reason why they created VAC Live that players will have a game ban instead.

Kernel AC now!

#10

blunus Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:09pm

Doesn't matter if it's a VAC ban or a game ban, as long as the account is banned that's it.

Once again kernel ACs are literal spyware, so there's no need when VAC is working as intended fine.

#11

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:15pm

Originally posted by blunus:
Doesn't matter if it's a VAC ban or a game ban, as long as the account is banned that's it.

Once again kernel ACs are literal spyware, so there's no need when VAC is working as intended fine.

The problem of VAC BAN and Game Ban on CS that they can just create another account easily.

Unlike Valorant:

https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/hkjd73/hwid_ban_on_2nd_hand_purchased_pc_components/

#12

blunus Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:23pm

Unlike Riot Games, Valve respected the innocent that bought used hardware that would be banned. HWIDs can also be spoofed. That way, Riot created more problems at best.

Last edited by blunus; Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:24pm

#13

BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤ Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:28pm

Originally posted by blunus:
Unlike Riot Games, Valve respected the innocent that bought used hardware that would be banned. HWIDs can also be spoofed. That way, Riot created more problems at best.

Spoofer don't work with Kernel Level Anti-Cheat of Valorant.

#14

blunus Oct 19, 2023 @ 9:30pm

Sure, whatever you say. Since you seem have no knowledge of Kernel ACs and how they work, I guess I'm out.

#15

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Date Posted: Oct 19, 2023 @ 8:06pm

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