Всички дискусии > Steam форум > VAC Discussion > Подробности за темата
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noob king 1 окт. 2023 в 16:28
a history of false VAC bans (we deserve better)
As a CS2 beta player who was unfortunately given a false VAC ban a day before the full launch; I've been on a desperate search to learn more about how this could happen and what my options are.

In short: it's disappointing and we should demand better.

However, the point of this post is not for pity, but rather to share the eye opening stories I've found from several people who had their bans reversed after weeks, months and in a few cases... years. That leads to the question: how many gave up before they were given justice?

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
When you're VAC banned, there is no appeal process. Every support request that's filed leads to the same automated response which ends with your request being closed.

Първоначално публикувано от Steam Support:
I understand your concern

However, your account, or an account using the phone number tied to your account, has connected to a VAC protected server while running cheat software, resulting in a VAC ban on your account. Even if you were unaware of cheats being used or were not using the account at the time the cheat was detected, VAC bans are permanent and we cannot remove them at Steam Support, nor do we offer an appeal system or disclose the detected cheat(s) which led to the ban. [...]

Because we have provided all the information we have for your VAC ban I'm closing this help request. If you have an unrelated issue please create a new help request, but please note, future help requests about your VAC ban may be closed without a reply.

This is arguably the worst part. False positives in an anti-cheat are understandable, but having no way to appeal or reach someone who has the ability to investigate the ban is unacceptable. The language at every turn is one of hopelessness and is where I believe we should be afforded some basic respect as paying customers.

RECENT BAN DATA
Convars[convars.com] is a popular website that keeps a log of recent ban data. As of 2023, there was a CS:GO ban spike on May 22nd[imgur.com] (878 total bans) and subsequently a month later a reversal spike on April 26th[imgur.com] (353 total reversed bans). Evidence that false bans are still a reoccurring theme.

VALVE ADMISSIONS
In 2014, a Valve employee shares that "an error on our servers caused several accounts to be erroneously suspended for a cheating infraction by our automated systems." In this case it does appear to have been correctly quickly, which is great. https://steamcommunity.com/app/730/discussions/0/558747287497644024/

In 2016, Valve admitted that an external software called Timer Resolution was the cause for detection and subsequent ban of at least 100 users. It's unknown how long it took for the corrective measures to be taken. https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/4ppkzl/false_vac_bans_for_timerresolution_reversed/

Since then, it doesn't look like Valve has publicly commented on false VAC ban waves, as all the reversed VAC bans from individual stories below were handled either automatically after an unacceptable amount of time, or required consistent nagging of Valve staff over the course of weeks and months any where except through the official support channels.

REVERSED BANS


PLEADING FOR JUSTICE
Being VAC banned is a humiliating process, especially when you're innocent. The harassments starts the second you speak up. For the sake of everyone in this position, I'd like to advocate for more communication from Valve in regards to a formal process of appeal, or guarantee that an actual human will review every VAC ban that occurs in some sort of reasonable time window.

A NEW FALSE BAN WAVE?
With the CS2 launch, a fresh ban wave on September 28[imgur.com] (1,365 total bans) has emerged with several claiming false positive bans, myself included. It's been a week so far, and with no human response we're left wondering if we'll actually get the justice of a manual review to these bans, or if we're in for a year long fight like some of the unlucky ones before us.
Последно редактиран от noob king; 1 окт. 2023 в 16:38
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Показване на 106-120 от 144 коментара
Zarineth 2 окт. 2023 в 8:16 
Първоначално публикувано от Wrongfully Convicted:
Първоначално публикувано от Commander Makara:
I'm not sure what the point of this thread is - some few thousands of accounts were banned incorrectly out of the millions over the last decade or so...
Nobody here believes VAC system is nor ever was perfect.

Most 'regular' visitors to this discussion board know and understand that incorrectly issued VAC bans are removed automatically.
________________

Also, trhere's little point debating on preferred interpretations of the word "cheating", since every Steam user agrees with Valve on the specific definition of "cheat" which is relevant pertaining to the use of Steam and /or subscriptions thereof.
Since every Steam registrant must give their acceptance to agree on the definition from the SSA, then this is the only definition that matters.

If you do not agree with this definition, then it's pretty dumb of you to have stated your acceptance to agree to it only to complain afterwards.
________________

The point of the thread is to bring awareness to the fact it's likely that more people than you think are unjustly banned and could remain that way forever. In several of the individual stories, it took months of nagging actual developers to get a manual review before the ban was cleared.

The official language of Valve and Steam Support is that the only way to get unbanned is to trust the very automated system that falsely banned you in the first place.

This is unacceptable in my view.
And as far as I know, nagging developers do exactly nothing. Bans are either false and will be removed or are right and won't.
#106
Commander Makara 2 окт. 2023 в 8:22 
Първоначално публикувано от VaLiuM:
Modding is modding, cheating is cheating, two different things. If you mod to cheat, yes, that's a rightful ban, because ultimately it's cheating. If you mod just to mod, no ban should occur. Being labeled as cheater when you put just a few pixels into a game is very much questionable. And therefore needs to be labeled properly. Or is it ok to be labeled murderer when you stole some eggs in the supermarket? The supermarket says it's murder, so we all must agree? No way in hell.


You're going in circles.
I already explained that whilst colloquially or for personal idealism you may have certain definitions or preferences to what constitutes a "cheat" or you may even have an idea where YOU would draw the line between "cheating" and "modding"
but that would be highly subjective and lots of people could have vastly differing opinions.

Therefore, it is agreed by you, me, and everyone, that the word "cheat" is defined very specifically in relation to VAC and Steam. Anything that falls under the umbrella of this agreed "cheat" definition may result in a VAC ban. Everybody is on exactly the same page and there's no grey areas left. Regardless of personal preference, the infraction IS "cheat"ing, if the action is identical to the agreed definition of "cheat".

You are drawing utterly false equivalence with your supermarket analogue. Supermarkets do not determine guilt and I don't see what circumstances a thief is prosecuted for murder. If this was to be accurate, it would require that before entering the supermarket, the egg thief would sign a legal document that they will not steal eggs and that doing so would constitute murder, and even then, the analogy fails since the actions involved in egg-theft would also need to be identical to murdering even if that is not the intention nor purpose.

I understand and agree that it may be embarrassing or awkward to have an account VAC banned because 'you' (by which I mean, a subscriber with VAC-banned account) wanted to change some pixels, but that subscriber still agreed on what counted as a "cheat" and then, having made that agreement, they still chose to engage in such modifications anyway.
I have more sympathy for those who were tricked into allowing others access to their accounts/credentials, but again, it's their responsibility.

If there's a concern over being "labelled", then it's very easy to circumvent. Just register a new, clean account. The ban applies to accounts, not individuals. Also after about 2500 days (assuming no further bans accrued) the red text is no longer prominent on the Steam profile page anyway so even "genuine cheats" may show they have reformed their behaviour over time.
#107
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 8:47 
Първоначално публикувано от Wrongfully Convicted:
Първоначално публикувано от The Living Tribunal:
You've simply posted publicly accessible and commonly known data. Advocate for change all you like but the bans are permanent.

If you read the post, you'd see bans actually are not permanent when they are FALSELY applied. However, it shouldn't take months of no communication and require players to work around the official system to get the attention of developers. Who actually knows how many falsely banned people gave up and are unjustifiably banned forever?
And if you look in this forum, you will see that everyone says that their ban is falsely applied. That doesn't mean that it is. Your post here is completely pointless. No one can remove it. This is not a place to discuss your ban or a place to appeal your ban. It's to discuss the VAC system. Absolutely nothing you say or post here will get the ban removed or investigated.

This is a user forum, which means you are conversing with other Steam users only. If even Steam Support cannot remove the ban, we certainly cannot either.

Screaming up and down that you believe the ban is incorrect, accomplishes less than nothing. This thread will end up being locked by a moderator and you will be told that the forums are not the place to dispute specific bans.

See this link:

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/9/3881597253359523471/#c3881597253359523156
Последно редактиран от C²C^Guyver |NZB|; 2 окт. 2023 в 9:03
#108
Zarineth 2 окт. 2023 в 8:55 
Първоначално публикувано от Nina:
Първоначално публикувано от Gold:
Actual cases of false positives doesn't make your case a false positive too. No one here has to give you even a fraction of the attention you want, don't expect to be heard.


No one expects to hear you or wants such a stupid comment. Valve lies when it arrives and only looks at money. If anti-cheat was valid, would there even be so many cheaters left in the game after the release of CS2? Now there are more of them.
And yet you are posting on a thread made by banned user... In a forum full of banned cheaters...
Последно редактиран от Zarineth; 2 окт. 2023 в 8:56
#109
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 8:57 
Първоначално публикувано от Nina:
Първоначално публикувано от Gold:
Actual cases of false positives doesn't make your case a false positive too. No one here has to give you even a fraction of the attention you want, don't expect to be heard.


No one expects to hear you or wants such a stupid comment. Valve lies when it arrives and only looks at money. If anti-cheat was valid, would there even be so many cheaters left in the game after the release of CS2? Now there are more of them.
VAC being designed to generate revenue, was debunked years ago.

https://imgur.com/a/eeaw0KW

"I just want to briefly comment here on the notion that VAC is designed to generate revenue. It is not and it never has been, and it doesn't make sense to even believe so if you think about it for a few minutes.

Let's say we ban a cheater, and then they rebuy the game. This generates 1x revenue, for the cheater's repurchase. But that cheater negatively impacted the experience of N other people (where N is greater than 1), who had less fun than they would have due to the cheating. Some percentage of those people are not going to buy in the future because their experience has been bad, and they may _never_ buy again. That costs on average far more than the 1x you got from the cheater rebuying, and it compounds.

We would much rather have the cheaters out of the community entirely than have them serially repurchase and screw up other people's games."
#110
Commander Makara 2 окт. 2023 в 8:58 
IF there was a significant problem with accounts being banned incorrectly, then "gaming media" and content creators would be screaming from the rooftops and Valve would need to address it visibly for PR purposes, since VAC is a huge selling point with Steamworks alongside the market reach.
Now that there are more serious competitors, dominance is not guaranteed. Publishers are not keen on platforms which will falsely ban their consumer revenue streams.
#111
VaLiuM 2 окт. 2023 в 9:03 
Първоначално публикувано от Commander Makara:
You're going in circles.
I already explained that whilst colloquially or for personal idealism you may have certain definitions or preferences to what constitutes a "cheat" or you may even have an idea where YOU would draw the line between "cheating" and "modding"
but that would be highly subjective and lots of people could have vastly differing opinions.
I know the difference between cheating and modding, you know the difference too. Why are you such a hard-trying to prove me wrong? Again, I don't care about cheaters but I also feel modders should be treated differently. What's not to like about that concept? It's not like someone tries to steal out of your pocket. I don't get it.
#112
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 9:11 
Първоначално публикувано от Nina:
Първоначално публикувано от Zarineth:
And yet you are posting on a thread made by banned user... In a forum full of banned cheaters...

A lot of us publish, and I have other words for such losers and losers, but I'm not allowed to use them because I've been banned 4 times for discussions. Come on, play 3-4 Deathmech and tell me what you think? In each round there is one monesy, simple, olofmeister, flusha, ropz, shroud....try it. And those same cheaters or trash thieves also play Premiere, Matchmaking... Where is that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ VAC?
lol

VAC is designed to ban accounts when a known cheat is detected. It cannot and does not stop people from cheating.

You can't fix people. You can't fix human nature.


https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/9/4846392474904201492/#c4846392474904308685

#FixSociety

Until you eradicate the human predilection to gain any advantage at any cost, there will always be cheaters, liars and thieves.

Cheating and catching cheaters in any online game is always a game of cat and mouse that never ends.
#113
Torque 2 окт. 2023 в 9:19 
If only the mods would had locked this post before 2nd page
#114
noob king 2 окт. 2023 в 9:20 
Първоначално публикувано от C²C^Guyver |NZB|:
Първоначално публикувано от Wrongfully Convicted:

If you read the post, you'd see bans actually are not permanent when they are FALSELY applied. However, it shouldn't take months of no communication and require players to work around the official system to get the attention of developers. Who actually knows how many falsely banned people gave up and are unjustifiably banned forever?
And if you look in this forum, you will see that everyone says that their ban is falsely applied. That doesn't mean that it is. Your post here is completely pointless. No one can remove it. This is not a place to discuss your ban or a place to appeal your ban. It's to discuss the VAC system. Absolutely nothing you say or post here will get the ban removed or investigated.

This is a user forum, which means you are conversing with other Steam users only. If even Steam Support cannot remove the ban, we certainly cannot either.

Screaming up and down that you believe the ban is incorrect, accomplishes less than nothing. This thread will end up being locked by a moderator and you will be told that the forums are not the place to dispute specific bans.

See this link:

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/9/3881597253359523471/#c3881597253359523156

If you actually read the post and my comments you would see I'm not advocating for my innocence or removal here, I'm doing that elsewhere. The category of this forum is "VAC Discussion" therefore I'm simply opening the discussion with evidence that the current system is not good enough.
#115
noob king 2 окт. 2023 в 9:21 
Първоначално публикувано от Torque:
If only the mods would had locked this post before 2nd page

Yeah, why should we discuss the VAC system in the VAC discussion forum, right? Why does this forum even exist?
#116
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 9:22 
Първоначално публикувано от Nina:
Първоначално публикувано от C²C^Guyver |NZB|:
lol

VAC is designed to ban accounts when a known cheat is detected. It cannot and does not stop people from cheating.

You can't fix people. You can't fix human nature.


https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/9/4846392474904201492/#c4846392474904308685

I understand . When you tell the truth to the cheating trash, then you will be without internet. You have to reset the router etc... and it's not the first time. Thank you, I understand what you want to say. I don't comment on anything anymore.
Resetting your router does not keep your account from getting VAC banned. VAC does not use IP addresses to ban accounts and it never has.
#117
Commander Makara 2 окт. 2023 в 9:22 
Първоначално публикувано от VaLiuM:
Първоначално публикувано от Commander Makara:
You're going in circles.
I already explained that whilst colloquially or for personal idealism you may have certain definitions or preferences to what constitutes a "cheat" or you may even have an idea where YOU would draw the line between "cheating" and "modding"
but that would be highly subjective and lots of people could have vastly differing opinions.
I know the difference between cheating and modding, you know the difference too. Why are you such a hard-trying to prove me wrong? Again, I don't care about cheaters but I also feel modders should be treated differently. What's not to like about that concept? It's not like someone tries to steal out of your pocket. I don't get it.

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. Please actually read the text I've written. I'm actually agreeing and acknowledging that, as you say, there's a difference between cheating and modding and so there is a huge grey area between the two. There is also a lot of crossover where the intention may be 'harmless modding' (i.e. changing pixels to make a gun look cool/expensive) but the action of changing pixels is definitely cheating - because changing pixels might be changing the visibility of enemies or transparency of walls etc.

My personal interpretation of "modding" could be very different from yours. I've seen many people refer to blatant (what I personally arbitrarily deterrmine to be "cheats" - such as Aimbots or Wallhacks) as "mods". I've also seen aimbots described as "accessibility aids". Even some people who ise the egregious 'hacks' consider it not cheating because they are merely attempting to close the gap with other cheats. It's subjective and everyone has different evaluation as to where the line of cheating lies ocne you get past the extremes there is room for certain loopholes.

I have already explained to you, so I'm getting a bit tired of it now, but here's my last attempt:
BECAUSE there is this grey area and overlap there is no simple way to reliably differentiate intention. As such, we all just agree beforehand on what counts as a "cheat" in any relation to VAC / Steam. Regardless of what we may feel personally or privately or in any other circumstance, when it comes to Steam, a "cheat" is
"software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Content and Services or modifications of Content and Services"

And that's all we need to know.

So regardless of how "innocent" the intention behind "modding" might be, if the activity involves that functionality or process as defined above, then you know a ban is warranted.

As I already stated, it's not about one's ethical persuasion nor ideals and personal definition interpretation of what's meant by "cheat" or "mod" etc. It's about making sure that EVERYBODY is agreeing to the same definition. That way, there is no risk of someone being banned for a harmless mod, because if the mod is truly harmless, it wont fall under the definition. If it does in fact contain process or functionality as described in SSA, then it is a "cheat" as ass VAC, Steam and your use of it is concerned.
#118
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 9:23 
Първоначално публикувано от Wrongfully Convicted:
Първоначално публикувано от C²C^Guyver |NZB|:
And if you look in this forum, you will see that everyone says that their ban is falsely applied. That doesn't mean that it is. Your post here is completely pointless. No one can remove it. This is not a place to discuss your ban or a place to appeal your ban. It's to discuss the VAC system. Absolutely nothing you say or post here will get the ban removed or investigated.

This is a user forum, which means you are conversing with other Steam users only. If even Steam Support cannot remove the ban, we certainly cannot either.

Screaming up and down that you believe the ban is incorrect, accomplishes less than nothing. This thread will end up being locked by a moderator and you will be told that the forums are not the place to dispute specific bans.

See this link:

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/9/3881597253359523471/#c3881597253359523156

If you actually read the post and my comments you would see I'm not advocating for my innocence or removal here, I'm doing that elsewhere. The category of this forum is "VAC Discussion" therefore I'm simply opening the discussion with evidence that the current system is not good enough.
And your advocacy won't accomplish anything. Incorrect VAC bans are removed by the VAC system itself. It is done automatically and with no interaction from the user whatsoever. If you read anything about VAC and how it worked, you would know this.
#119
C²C^Guyver |NZB| 2 окт. 2023 в 9:24 
Първоначално публикувано от Wrongfully Convicted:
Първоначално публикувано от Torque:
If only the mods would had locked this post before 2nd page

Yeah, why should we discuss the VAC system in the VAC discussion forum, right? Why does this forum even exist?
You're not discussing the system, you're discussing bans, there's a distinct difference.
#120
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