Nazi propaganda on steam

[mailbk]

Is it ok? Saw a number of profiles with swastika for example. And those people are of course are also aggressively react to messages

[AustrAlien2010]

In germany it's illegal to show in public places. So it should not be shown in public. Websites on the internet are public space, as far as I know. Unless you need to log-in. Because if something requires you to log-into or something, it's not typically what I would call "public."

If you have a public screenshot with a cross in it, it could be a problem. Unless it's a religious icon.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

In germany it's illegal to show in public places.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany

So whenever you see this icon without being logged into Steam, it can be reported. Unless it's a religious icon. Because you may show religious icons. And those could have the same appearence.

Manji do not have the same appearance as a swastika.

[Seraphita]

It can also be reported WHILE being logged. Profile images with the symbol have been banned from being shown in public before. Can't remember if there is a definitely written rule about it, though. Normally, there should be if it's against the rules.

[AustrAlien2010]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Boblin the Goblin:

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

In germany it's illegal to show in public places.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany

So whenever you see this icon without being logged into Steam, it can be reported. Unless it's a religious icon. Because you may show religious icons. And those could have the same appearence.

Manji do not have the same appearance as a swastika.

But if your so-called Manji is reflected in a mirror, it's still a manji icon. It's problematic to make an automatic rule for, because a system may not be able to detect how an image was intended, and whether or not it is a swastica or a mirrored manji icon.
How to deal with that?

[Boblin the Goblin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Boblin the Goblin:

Manji do not have the same appearance as a swastika.

But if your so-called Manji is reflected in a mirror, it's still a manji icon. It's a problematic to make a clear rule for, because a system may not be able to detect how an image was meant.

If it's inverted and tilted, it isn't a Manji icon.

Don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

[Tolkien Book Fan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mailbk:

Is it ok? Saw a number of profiles with swastika for example. And those people are of course are also aggressively react to messages

Valve cracked down on Nazi images or names back in 2018. You can actually see it mentioned in that letter from the Senate being spammed around the forums. However, current Valve moderation only act on reports, so if it isn't reported it won't be removed.

[Ben Lubar]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Seraphita:

It can also be reported WHILE being logged. Profile images with the symbol have been banned from being shown in public before. Can't remember if there is a definitely written rule about it, though. Normally, there should be if it's against the rules.

I would have been so much more interested in the report if they had actually told Steam about the objectionable content they were probably the second person to have ever seen and tracked how long it took Steam to remove it. Even if they did this by sending a million URLs to Valve at once and getting extremely skewed results that way, it would have been better than just announcing "we found a problem and here are some very out of touch suggestions that don't apply to any forum that's ever been successfully run"

[AustrAlien2010]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Boblin the Goblin:

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

But if your so-called Manji is reflected in a mirror, it's still a manji icon. It's a problematic to make a clear rule for, because a system may not be able to detect how an image was meant.

If it's inverted and tilted, it isn't a Manji icon.

Don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

Because an automatic system that scans for this image may not be able to detect a mirrored manji from a swastica, and would end-up reporting such content inappropriately.

How to devise an automatic system that does not make this mistake?

[Boblin the Goblin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Boblin the Goblin:

If it's inverted and tilted, it isn't a Manji icon.

Don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

Because an automatic system that scans for this image may not be able to detect a mirrored manji from a swastica en end-up reporting such content inappropriately.
How do devise an automatic system that does not make this mistake?

Train it with the proper images.

[AustrAlien2010]

And how would you propose one does that? Technically speaking. Because the system would not be able to detect the intent behind a drawn symbol, and whether or not the artist or drawer intended to draw a mirrored manji or a swastika.

It may still end-up reporting images inappropriately, and through that error propagate the symbol regardless.

[Ben Lubar]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

And how would you propose one does that? Technically speaking. Because the system would not be able to detect the intent behind the symbol, and whether or not the artist intended to draw a mirrored manji or a swastika.

A computer is a calculator. It cannot calculate the intent behind whatever it "sees." It cannot understand it's looking at a mirrored manji unless it's told it is.

Also, having a line carved in stone by figuring out the exact dividing point between mirrored manji and swastikas would just result in bad actors staying just barely over that line. The reason we have human moderators making decisions at all is exactly that - someone needs to be able to say "no, that's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" when someone else tries to pretend they're not breaking the rules, and also to be able to see when someone isn't actually breaking the rules but a naive interpretation of the rules would say they are.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

And how would you propose one does that? Technically speaking. Because the system would not be able to detect the intent behind a drawn symbol, and whether or not the artist or drawer intended to draw a mirrored manji or a swastika.

It may still end-up reporting images inappropriately, and through error propagate the symbol.

Doesn't matter the intent. A swastika as a pfp breaks the ToS.

[Ben Lubar]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Boblin the Goblin:

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

And how would you propose one does that? Technically speaking. Because the system would not be able to detect the intent behind a drawn symbol, and whether or not the artist or drawer intended to draw a mirrored manji or a swastika.

It may still end-up reporting images inappropriately, and through error propagate the symbol.

Doesn't matter the intent. A swastika as a pfp breaks the ToS.

Weren't we talking about publicly displaying a religious symbol in real life in Germany just a few posts ago?

Yes, putting anything resembling nazi symbolism on a profile is against the rules. As it should be.

But a human has to look at it and go "yes that's a swastika" or "no, that's not". You can't have a computer deciding on its own because then it becomes a game of finding the most offensive object that the computer doesn't catch. A human can just say "no, you're breaking the rules no matter how much you pretend not to", whereas a computer is deterministic - it will give you the same answer every time for the same input, which means it needs to decide long ahead of time whether something breaks the rules.

[AustrAlien2010]

But the system would still have to accuse the user of having drawn a swastika, even though it may have not. And through that potentially false accusation, propagate the symbol and whatever ideology is behind it.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AustrAlien2010:

But the system would still have to accuse the user of having drawn a swastika, even though it may have not. And through that propagate the symbol.

We can't have robots accusing people of all sort of stuff they did not do.

Doesn't matter if the user drew it. It can't be a pfp or displayed on Steam.