How do you escalate a refund request?

[HumbleSage]

Like the title says. I'm clearly getting stone-walled by the 2hr playtime rule. Put in 3 separate tickets, the last 2 requesting escalation. Same ridiculous response. I'm done being reasonable with systems that are clearly *not* reasonable.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kargor:

I don't know anything about Australia, but good luck trying to argue that a game that works fine for countless other people "doesn't work".

There's a distinct difference compared to individual products like a TV, where you can have 999 perfectly working TVs and 1 that's messed up coming from the same assembly line. In contrast, each copy of a software sold is 100% identical, bit by bit. You don't get a defective software unless it's defective for everyone.

That's why, around here, every shop that sells physical goods has a way to deal with returns. Software-shops such as Steam, on the other hand, can offer a voluntary refund policy -- or none at all.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Except in this case, it wouldn't matter. The game works fine for a great majority and even OP has stated it works outside of a bug, which is to be expected with software.

Starting 2019 in Europe, the burden of the proof that the digital product works as advertised in on the seller. Any digital content is considered as goods (i.e. not a service) and if it doesn't work as advertised and the seller can't repair it, you're entitled to a partial or full refund until two years counting from the date of purchase. Be it a TV, a refrigerator, or the latest Bethesda game.

I already got a full refund before invoking that law for a game that stopped working in full even past 20 hours of gameplay after a patch broke the sound for some customers and I managed to show the developer couldn't or wouldn't fix it. Took a bit of back and forth but if you do everything as you're supposed to, it's simply the law and Valve cannot do anything but comply. Of course, it's not in their best interest to inform you and as many corporations, they count on people not knowing their rights.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
https://blog.intigriti.com/2022/06/27/new-eu-law-changing-game-digital-goods-producers/

Now I don't know if OP is in this situation but I expect this information to be useful to someone at some point. Take care! :clickbutton:

Them granting an exception(which they have done with anyone) is not evidence of that law applying.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Them granting an exception(which they have done with anyone) is not evidence of that law applying.

Nor your denial compelling evidence that it didn't. I'm not debating with you here, I'm merely informing you of the rights of any EU citizen, written black on white with the appropriate sources proving my claim. Your feelings and (wrong) assumptions about this matter are of little consequence to the facts.

No if you would have an example of a European citizen invoking that law being denied a refund for a non-functional product... I would be happy to bring it to the attention of the fraud repression offices.

https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/guarantees-and-warranties.html

Since January 1, 2022, the warranty has been extended to connected products (connected watch or fridge, voice assistant...) as well as to digital services and content. You can therefore invoke the legal guarantee of conformity when, for example, your connected watch, an online video game, your favourite social network, your subscription to video on demand (VOD) or to a dating site does not work.

The guarantee applies even if you have not paid a price to benefit from these digital contents or services but if you have provided personal data.

[Ben Lubar]

x-com: enemy unknown is a video game that won multiple "game of the year" awards

if it was actually broken in a way that made an early mandatory mission impossible on unmodded versions, that wouldn't have happened

[D. Flame]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HumbleSage:

"Hope" being the operative word. I submitted another 4th ticket. I think what bothers me most, is how quick they are to dismiss players that have invested so much on their platform. There is a principle matter here and it's upsetting that something that could be identified so easily they just ignore.

Appreciate your response nonetheless.

That's because you are outside of the automatic refund period, so you do NOT get an automatic refund, period.

You can file a manual ticket, and a real person will review your ticket and decide whether you still deserve a refund or not.

I have filed for and successfully received refunds outside of the 2 hour window, but I also had good reason and documented evidence to support my request. I was also polite and professional in my refund request.

Protip: when you are requesting something, and approval is contingent on the whims of the other party, don't be a ♥♥♥♥.

[On Vacation]

This Directive shall not apply to contracts for the supply of digital content or digital services. It shall, however, apply to digital content or digital services which are incorporated in or inter-connected with goods in the meaning of point (5)(b) of Article 2

(5)

‘goods’ means:

(b)

any tangible movable items that incorporate or are inter-connected with digital content or a digital service in such a way that the absence of that digital content or digital service would prevent the goods from performing their functions (‘goods with digital elements’);

How that got interpreted to apply to games delivered through Steam is beyond me.

[Kargor]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von On Vacation:

This Directive shall not apply to
...
How that got interpreted to apply to games delivered through Steam is beyond me.

We had a similar thing in Europe/Germany. They generally tried to address the issue of "mail order" sending you stuff that you've never seen for real, so a rather unconditional refund clause was created.

HOWEVER, as much as we like to complain about them, lawmakers aren't necessarily dumb. That refund clause had various exceptions, like for stuff that gets "used" (so, no refunding used toilet paper...), movie discs (so, no "order a movie, watch it, refund it"), software downloads etc.

Of course, the usual armchair lawyer crowd on Steam tried to argue that Steam is covered by that refund regulation, because they generally just like to read the headlines and avoid delving into the details. Valve, on the other hand, read the entire new law, and actually added all the required texts and checkboxes to their checkout process (note: I don't think it's still there; no idea why. Maybe the laws got updated a bit, or maybe they decided they overreacted and they don't actually have to do all that).

[lukaself]

Overlooking the fact that's the interpretation of the regulatory office itself, not mine. According to them, a video game is covered. Here's the full explanation, from the EU's Directorate General for Internal Market, Industry, Entrepreneurship and SMEs, taken from the official website of the European Union I linked earlier:

Products that require software to function

Special rules apply when you buy digital content like videos, music, and software apps, such as

a video game that you download once
weekly links to a news website for which you pay a subscription fee
continuous supply of cloud storage.

These rules also apply when you provide your personal data in exchange for the content or service. This includes photos and social media posts that were processed with your consent.

You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee if the digital content or service turns out to be faulty, not as advertised or not working as expected. If the supplier can’t fix the content or service within a reasonable time, free of charge and without inconvenience to you, you can ask for a reduction in the price. In some cases, you can terminate the contract.

And by the way, from Valve's own words:

IF YOU ARE A CONSUMER WHO LIVES IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THIS DOCUMENT IN ITS ENTIRETY DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. INSTEAD, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THE STATUTORY WARRANTIES AND LEGAL RECOURSES PROVIDED BY YOUR HOME JURISDICTION.

[Brian9824]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Overlooking the fact that's the interpretation of the regulatory office itself, not mine. According to them, a video game is covered. Here's the full explanation, from the EU's Directorate General for Internal Market, Industry, Entrepreneurship and SMEs, taken from the official website of the European Union I linked earlier:

Products that require software to function

Special rules apply when you buy digital content like videos, music, and software apps, such as

a video game that you download once
weekly links to a news website for which you pay a subscription fee
continuous supply of cloud storage.

These rules also apply when you provide your personal data in exchange for the content or service. This includes photos and social media posts that were processed with your consent.

You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee if the digital content or service turns out to be faulty, not as advertised or not working as expected. If the supplier can’t fix the content or service within a reasonable time, free of charge and without inconvenience to you, you can ask for a reduction in the price. In some cases, you can terminate the contract.

And by the way, from Valve's own words:

IF YOU ARE A CONSUMER WHO LIVES IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THIS DOCUMENT IN ITS ENTIRETY DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. INSTEAD, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THE STATUTORY WARRANTIES AND LEGAL RECOURSES PROVIDED BY YOUR HOME JURISDICTION.

You might not be aware but in the EU you are allowed to waive your right to refund when the download commences which steam requires you to do in order to purchase. Otherwise anyone could buy a game, beat it and then say "it didn't work" to get a refund.

So you are subject to the same 2 hour refund period in the EU.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

You might not be aware but in the EU you are allowed to waive your right to refund when the download commences which steam requires you to do in order to purchase. Otherwise anyone could buy a game, beat it and then say "it didn't work" to get a refund.

So you are subject to the same 2 hour refund period in the EU.

That's only for the right of withdrawal (the one which allows you to refund an online purchase for 14 days without having to state a reason), you do not waive your right to refund altogether and still are covered by the legal guarantee of conformity for a minimal period of two years from the date of purchase.

It's mentioned in the documents I linked.

[Brian9824]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

You might not be aware but in the EU you are allowed to waive your right to refund when the download commences which steam requires you to do in order to purchase. Otherwise anyone could buy a game, beat it and then say "it didn't work" to get a refund.

So you are subject to the same 2 hour refund period in the EU.

That's only for the right of withdrawal (the one which allows you to refund an online purchase for 14 days without having to state a reason), you do not waive your right to refund altogether and still are covered by the legal guarantee of conformity for a minimal period of two years from the date of purchase.

It's mentioned in the documents I linked.

This argument has been beaten into the ground repeatedly. Steam already follows the EU law, if they hadn't someone would have sued them over it already. You have the same refund window in the EU as you do in the US or otherwise.

If you feel they are violating the law feel free to report them and/or sue them. Not getting into another legal argument with people who have no clue what the laws they are googling means or how they apply.

Suffice to say not even the EU was dumb enough to create the massive loopholes your describing. Otherwise people would just buy a movie/game, beat/watch it and then return it.

[Aluvard]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

You might not be aware but in the EU you are allowed to waive your right to refund when the download commences which steam requires you to do in order to purchase. Otherwise anyone could buy a game, beat it and then say "it didn't work" to get a refund.

So you are subject to the same 2 hour refund period in the EU.

That's only for the right of withdrawal (the one which allows you to refund an online purchase for 14 days without having to state a reason), you do not waive your right to refund altogether and still are covered by the legal guarantee of conformity for a minimal period of two years from the date of purchase.

It's mentioned in the documents I linked.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8620-QYAL-4516

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

That's only for the right of withdrawal (the one which allows you to refund an online purchase for 14 days without having to state a reason), you do not waive your right to refund altogether and still are covered by the legal guarantee of conformity for a minimal period of two years from the date of purchase.

It's mentioned in the documents I linked.

This argument has been beaten into the ground repeatedly. Steam already follows the EU law, if they hadn't someone would have sued them over it already. You have the same refund window in the EU as you do in the US or otherwise.

If you feel they are violating the law feel free to report them and/or sue them. Not getting into another legal argument with people who have no clue what the laws they are googling means or how they apply.

Suffice to say not even the EU was dumb enough to create the massive loopholes your describing. Otherwise people would just buy a movie/game, beat/watch it and then return it.

It's for non-functional products... obviously people can't ask refunds for digital content which works fine. You're claiming that Valve can sell you non-functional products and not refund you for it. That's absurd. Valve uphold the legal guarantee of conformity for EU citizens and state as much in their license agreements.

I'm not the one who's playing armchair lawyer here - I'm only relaying information provided by the actual regulatory office. You're the one who's making absurd claims without backup.

[Brian9824]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

It's for non-functional products... obviously people can't ask refunds for digital content which works. You're claiming that Valve can sell you non-functional products and not refund you for it. That's absurd. Valve uphold the legal guarantee of conformity and state as much in their license agreements.

I'm not the one who's playing armchair lawyer here. You're the one who's making absurd claims without backup.

Nope, you are making absurd claims with no clue what you are talking about. Do you honestly think someone can just declare a game on Steam non-functional and then get their money back?

For a software to be declared non-functional it would require court action, lawsuits, etc. Not just a user saying it doesn't work which steam can't verify. It wouldn't apply to a single game being sold on Steam atm.

Hence why you don't know what your talking about, your using terminology without understanding the nuances behind it.

I can ensure you no court in the world is going to find that XCOM: Enemy Unknown is "non-functional" just because someone claims it....

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lukaself:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

This argument has been beaten into the ground repeatedly. Steam already follows the EU law, if they hadn't someone would have sued them over it already. You have the same refund window in the EU as you do in the US or otherwise.

If you feel they are violating the law feel free to report them and/or sue them. Not getting into another legal argument with people who have no clue what the laws they are googling means or how they apply.

Suffice to say not even the EU was dumb enough to create the massive loopholes your describing. Otherwise people would just buy a movie/game, beat/watch it and then return it.

It's for non-functional products... obviously people can't ask refunds for digital content which works fine. You're claiming that Valve can sell you non-functional products and not refund you for it. That's absurd. Valve uphold the legal guarantee of conformity for EU citizens and state as much in their license agreements.

I'm not the one who's playing armchair lawyer here - I'm only relaying information provided by the actual regulatory office. You're the one who's making absurd claims without backup.

The absurd claim is implying you can get a refund for a game up to 2 years after purchase.

Even EU regulation isn't that insane.

[lukaself]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

Do you honestly think someone can just declare a game on Steam non-functional and then get their money back?

No lawsuits necessary since, once again, I know for a fact Valve does comply with the EU's legislation in that matter.

Taking my own case for instance, an update broke the audio for an indeterminate number of people in a game I had for several months with more than 20 hours of gameplay on it. I had to provide evidence that I contacted the developer and publisher directly first and that they wouldn't/couldn't remedy the fault. I waited for two weeks as a reasonable timeframe for an answer and then contacted Valve, explaining the situation. After another two weeks delay which allowed Valve to investigate the refund got granted under the grounds of EU's legal guarantee of conformity as well as the corresponding local laws in France, not as an exception. I already got such an exception back in 2015 for Arkham Knight and that time it was clearly labeled as a commercial gesture.

It also works the same way for hardware. Valve has to comply to EU's law for the 24 months guarantee of conformity and replace any Steam Deck that a customer deems defective. I've seen many cases where EU citizens have been granted service where US ones would have been refused. The main difference with the US is also that a US citizen has to provide evidence it's defective, when in the EU, it's Valve who has to provide evidence it's working. Of course, they'll verify the claim in their workshop and will bill you if they can provide evidence the unit wasn't defective. I've seen more than a few exchanges with Steam's support about it where the N+1 had to intervene because the basic level of support is undertrained about EU customers' specific rights and will claim at first they they don't owe you anything.

Of course, if would have been certainly more complicated would I have been alone in contacting Valve about it but publishers can't just sell customers non-functional products and expect to get away with it, not in the EU at least.

Here's yet another governmental office confirming how that works:

When you buy a product, it must be consistent with expected use and to seller's description. There is a legal guarantee of compliance. This warranty applies to defects already present to the delivery date. It applies 2 years maximum after delivery of a new good and 1 year for a second-hand good. It also applies to products and services digital. In the event of a dispute, you can call on a mediator. If you fail, you can go to court.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11094?lang=en