Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

[Zeno]

Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

Basically, I have met so many people from Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Moldova and so on and on, who in their home countries weren't particularly rich or wealthy, in fact most of them were quite poor due to the terribly low salary in those countries.

I noticed that almost all of them who either had a little bit of success or even managed to become wealthy abroad, mostly by getting heavily supported by my government, then completely " evolved or rather devolved " into super arrogant and greedy kind of people who think they are above everyone else, just because they can now afford an old BMW or buy themselves an iPhone.

Being married to a slavic woman myself, I am well aware of this kind of mentality and noticed this a hell a lot.

My point is, how is this contributing to anything positive ? Most people in my country or in fact most western european countires who do have some money, don't go around bragging about it in such excessive manner while in slavic cultural circles it seems to be " normal " and good to show off the coin you own, whenever and wherever you can.

If you are slavic and act like this or plan to act like this in future, let me tell you that NO ONE over here is impressed by that nor will like you because of that. Being an arrogant, greedy Mr. Richby isn't particularly a likeable character trait.

And that being said, what you call wealth and success, most people in the west call average at best.


The reason I brought this topic up is because I have noticed that quite some Ukrainian refugees over here in my country, receive money from the government and tons of support, but act all rich and mighty as they are some sort of royals who are above everyone else, including the German people. I have noticed the same with Russians that come here as well.

Don't act like this, this only causes problems and you get dislike from western people, which in return might have negative effects on the war efforts of your country, if you are from Ukraine.

Lets act like good guests and behave respectful and humble and not take tax payers money for years and then smile into their face while going shopping at 10 am on a monday morning or having a coffee at 3 o clock during work hours while all the Germans are hussling and sweat their a... off at work to afford your vacation in Germany.

[Morkonan]

PS: Sorry, I got long again... again. The TLDR is: I agree with you that jerks are jerks, no matter where they are from. I just wanted you to examine your own feelings about immigrants and then make sure that you weren't targeting them based more on their cultural background than their behaviors. That's all. :) You are also expected to have at least a bit of push-back against large numbers of strange people suddenly coming into your country - It's natural, so I don't think your feelings there, even if biased, would be unusual.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Shashka92:

Listen, I don't disagree with you and I understand WHY people act like this or what their motivation perhaps even intrinsical motivation is behind this.

I don't even care if they act like this in their own country, its their society, their values.

But as soon as you decide to go to another country, you are gonna play by other societal rules and if you try to apply your own " rules " in form of behavioural patterns, personality traits and so on, it can and most likely will happen that you collide with the locals.

You overcomplicate things a little.

Yes, things are a bit overcomplicated relative to your specific experience... But, like... I don't have much to really go on, do I? I can only try to cover some "general" stuff, like I first stated. :)

..But I am in their country and their values matter, not mine. So we did not argue and dressed appropriately.


Now, not only is this a law, but a different type of moral in this place.

Absolutely. As the old adage states, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Probably first stated by a Roman who was upset that some Germanic Mercenaries refused to recline when eating dinner. :)

Waves of "culture shock" on BOTH sides have been a thing since... Well, since long before the Silk Road and Eastern spice-merchants practically invaded Italy and Spain and the rest of Europe. (You can include the Jewish Diaspora there, too, as well as various Romani immigration periods. IOW - Europe has a lot of history of people moving around in it. Like.. Vikings! :))

In truth - It is expected for you to experience your own bit of cultural shock with in influx of immigrants. It's also expected for you to push back against that, too. You would, of course, just like I would or any natural citizen of any country where a different group people suddenly just show up en masse'. (Darn French!)


That's partly why I responded like I did. I thought I'd just drill down to the biggest issue that leads to a possible solution, or at least a point of view that can lead to that solution. Both peoples have to share that point of view, though, which might be the ultimate problem here. :(

So if I for whatever reason decide to be arrogant and act as if I am above everyone, treating everyone around me like a servant, then this might work in your own country but you will only run into problems in another country.

Do you see the point I am making ?

I do. That aggressive action is "bad." I don't disagree with you that you should push back against that sort of behavior.

Though, I don't know how prevalent it is, I can assume some causes for it. That there may be some kind of legacy in their own country that gives rise to it does not make it "right." I was just talking about "in general" and more of the casual brashness and arrogance one may see when people who haven't ever had anything, couldn't really have anything, finally get "something." That's much more common.

You are right to complain about jerks, no matter their heritage or country of origin.

We can play happy people happy world as much as we want, people are different all around the globe and thats alright. But I nor others have to like how they or me behave and act in certain situations.

I agree with you. And, someone in Dubai probably agrees with you, too, even if they wouldn't agree with you wearing a short-sleeved shirt anywhere that food was present. :)

I think it is safe to say that in most western countries, one is considered a jerk if he acts like this because he is now more wealthy than before or gained a certain position. Besides, in Slavic countries these people are also not particularly liked. But they exist a lot more than here for the reasons you have explained.

I would never approve of the bad behavior you describe. That would simply be undesirable behavior, as you've phrased it, no matter who was doing it.

I do have to acknowledge, though, that you may also be experiencing some culture-shock and the situation when a lot of immigrants come into a country is always fraught with a bunch of cultural clashing... So, since I can't be familiar with the specifics, I can only stick to the general sorts of situations indicated by what you wrote.

Is it not possible for people in your country to also behave this way, though?

What I'm ultimately saying is this - The path to resolution has to first start with understanding where certain sorts of behaviors may come from. That MUST be done on both sides, so the immigrants you describe are not innocent. You, too, have to try to understand their weird behaviors and the differences between your cultures that may have given rise to them. Because those people are not going to go away... you both have to try to comprehend where each of you are coming from. That doesn't mean they can continue to act like that, though.

Jerks are jerks in any culture. So, yeah, avoiding and speaking out against jerks is something you, and anyone else, have to do. But, sometimes, we can call people jerks and we may be doing so because of frustrations or cultural differences that might not have anything to do with the person we're calling a jerk.

There's plenty of anecdotes for behaviors in the US I could include, but didn't. :)

PS: I'm reminded by a trope you see in movies and television shows. It's the one that begins with someone who's never been given any power or authority over anything finally getting some kind of recognized power or authority - They go nuts, filled with some kind of official or social power/authority and become a "tyrant" as a result. eg: In "Southpark" Cartman becomes an "honorary" policeman and goes on a "Respect My Authority" rampage. Yes, that's a "jerk."

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Morkonan:

PS: Sorry, I got long again... again. The TLDR is: I agree with you that jerks are jerks, no matter where they are from. I just wanted you to examine your own feelings about immigrants and then make sure that you weren't targeting them based more on their cultural background than their behaviors. That's all. :) You are also expected to have at least a bit of push-back against large numbers of strange people suddenly coming into your country - It's natural, so I don't think your feelings there, even if biased, would be unusual.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Shashka92:

Listen, I don't disagree with you and I understand WHY people act like this or what their motivation perhaps even intrinsical motivation is behind this.

I don't even care if they act like this in their own country, its their society, their values.

But as soon as you decide to go to another country, you are gonna play by other societal rules and if you try to apply your own " rules " in form of behavioural patterns, personality traits and so on, it can and most likely will happen that you collide with the locals.

You overcomplicate things a little.

Yes, things are a bit overcomplicated relative to your specific experience... But, like... I don't have much to really go on, do I? I can only try to cover some "general" stuff, like I first stated. :)

..But I am in their country and their values matter, not mine. So we did not argue and dressed appropriately.


Now, not only is this a law, but a different type of moral in this place.

Absolutely. As the old adage states, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Probably first stated by a Roman who was upset that some Germanic Mercenaries refused to recline when eating dinner. :)

Waves of "culture shock" on BOTH sides have been a thing since... Well, since long before the Silk Road and Eastern spice-merchants practically invaded Italy and Spain and the rest of Europe. (You can include the Jewish Diaspora there, too, as well as various Romani immigration periods. IOW - Europe has a lot of history of people moving around in it. Like.. Vikings! :))

In truth - It is expected for you to experience your own bit of cultural shock with in influx of immigrants. It's also expected for you to push back against that, too. You would, of course, just like I would or any natural citizen of any country where a different group people suddenly just show up en masse'. (Darn French!)


That's partly why I responded like I did. I thought I'd just drill down to the biggest issue that leads to a possible solution, or at least a point of view that can lead to that solution. Both peoples have to share that point of view, though, which might be the ultimate problem here. :(

So if I for whatever reason decide to be arrogant and act as if I am above everyone, treating everyone around me like a servant, then this might work in your own country but you will only run into problems in another country.

Do you see the point I am making ?

I do. That aggressive action is "bad." I don't disagree with you that you should push back against that sort of behavior.

Though, I don't know how prevalent it is, I can assume some causes for it. That there may be some kind of legacy in their own country that gives rise to it does not make it "right." I was just talking about "in general" and more of the casual brashness and arrogance one may see when people who haven't ever had anything, couldn't really have anything, finally get "something." That's much more common.

You are right to complain about jerks, no matter their heritage or country of origin.

We can play happy people happy world as much as we want, people are different all around the globe and thats alright. But I nor others have to like how they or me behave and act in certain situations.

I agree with you. And, someone in Dubai probably agrees with you, too, even if they wouldn't agree with you wearing a short-sleeved shirt anywhere that food was present. :)

I think it is safe to say that in most western countries, one is considered a jerk if he acts like this because he is now more wealthy than before or gained a certain position. Besides, in Slavic countries these people are also not particularly liked. But they exist a lot more than here for the reasons you have explained.

I would never approve of the bad behavior you describe. That would simply be undesirable behavior, as you've phrased it, no matter who was doing it.

I do have to acknowledge, though, that you may also be experiencing some culture-shock and the situation when a lot of immigrants come into a country is always fraught with a bunch of cultural clashing... So, since I can't be familiar with the specifics, I can only stick to the general sorts of situations indicated by what you wrote.

Is it not possible for people in your country to also behave this way, though?

What I'm ultimately saying is this - The path to resolution has to first start with understanding where certain sorts of behaviors may come from. That MUST be done on both sides, so the immigrants you describe are not innocent. You, too, have to try to understand their weird behaviors and the differences between your cultures that may have given rise to them. Because those people are not going to go away... you both have to try to comprehend where each of you are coming from. That doesn't mean they can continue to act like that, though.

Jerks are jerks in any culture. So, yeah, avoiding and speaking out against jerks is something you, and anyone else, have to do. But, sometimes, we can call people jerks and we may be doing so because of frustrations or cultural differences that might not have anything to do with the person we're calling a jerk.

There's plenty of anecdotes for behaviors in the US I could include, but didn't. :)

PS: I'm reminded by a trope you see in movies and television shows. It's the one that begins with someone who's never been given any power or authority over anything finally getting some kind of recognized power or authority - They go nuts, filled with some kind of official or social power/authority and become a "tyrant" as a result. eg: In "Southpark" Cartman becomes an "honorary" policeman and goes on a "Respect My Authority" rampage. Yes, that's a "jerk."

Thing is, my wife is Ukrainian, I have lived in Ukraine and visited this place numerous times afterwards. Non of this is new to me nor does it come as a shock.

What comes rather as a frustration is to see these people in my own country now, acting like this, at this point I am obviously forced to vote for the AfD (German center-right wing party) in order to contribute to some change.
Which is sad, because I was not planning to vote for any right wing party but more and more people support them now as our current government does not protect its own citizens anymore and has motivated and allowed for huuuuuuuuuuge mass migrations to go on in our country since 2015 (Syria war) and now Ukraine with over 1 million refugees that almost all live off our tax money.

This is the motivation.

But again, I still stand with what I have said. This is not just a " jerks being jerks " kind of thing, this is a national mentality trait that people share. The reason this is " accepted " in countries such as Ukraine is because of corruption.

Money means power over there, to the extend that you won't even see a prison from the inside if you mess up big time. Which makes me even more allergic against such behaviour as these people appear to thing this is how it goes in Germany as well, but our law does not really care about your money.
If you mess up, you go to jail.

[Slim]

rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
adjective
characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Slim:

rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
adjective
characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

"A nation with a national mentality means a nation with national identity, history, national culture, national customs and traditions. It embodies the national identity, customs, and psychological differences, peculiar way of thinking that distinguishes the people as a nation from other nations."

https://cejsr.academicjournal.io/index.php/journal/article/view/921#:~:text=A%20nation%20with%20a%20national,a%20nation%20from%20other%20nations.


Calling a genetical Slav with a Slavic wife a racist for criticising parts of obviously negative traits in Slavic social culture a racist, seems a little too woke to me.

[Enigmatic]

Well to be fair, I got same impression from a few Ukrainians. My mothers side is all Ukrainian, but when I start to realize some Ukrainians don't like multiculturalism. They like to hold onto everything. Less likely to assimilate. But I haven't noticed any arrogance or overall rudeness.

One guy I contracted to help me out just got to Canada. He was less than a year here. Was already driving brand new Audi SUV. Sweet guy, I bought him tickets to a Ukrainian concert for his hlep.

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από εnigmatic:

Well to be fair, I got same impression from a few Ukrainians. My mothers side is all Ukrainian, but when I start to realize some Ukrainians don't like multiculturalism. They like to hold onto everything. Less likely to assimilate. But I haven't noticed any arrogance or overall rudeness.

I call it arrogance and rudeness as this is what I perceive it as in public.

[Slim]

https://library.harvard.edu/confronting-anti-black-racism/scientific-racism

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Slim:

https://library.harvard.edu/confronting-anti-black-racism/scientific-racism

Ok ?

You are aware that I am the same ethnic group as Slavic people though since I am slavic, right ?

[Slim]

You literally just told me that science justifies racism and I already referenced your train of thought as being Uncle Tom'ish.

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Slim:

You literally just told me that science justifies racism and I already referenced your train of thought as being Uncle Tom'ish.

No, I have not said such thing. You are the only person who came up with racism and using " Uncle Tomish " whatever the hell that even means.

Stop gate keeping people by claiming they are being racist.

[Magic A. I.]

This thread is so cringe, self-hating, and projecting, I'll have to block the OP now.

[Zeno]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Magic A. I.:

This thread is so cringe, self-hating, and projecting, I'll have to block the OP now. :SFRIP:

Yeah block people that made a different experience than you and don't agree with your personal opinion, thats probably the best for all of us.

[Enigmatic]

Maybe the issue isn't a group of people but Socailism.