Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

[Zeno]

Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

Basically, I have met so many people from Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Moldova and so on and on, who in their home countries weren't particularly rich or wealthy, in fact most of them were quite poor due to the terribly low salary in those countries.

I noticed that almost all of them who either had a little bit of success or even managed to become wealthy abroad, mostly by getting heavily supported by my government, then completely " evolved or rather devolved " into super arrogant and greedy kind of people who think they are above everyone else, just because they can now afford an old BMW or buy themselves an iPhone.

Being married to a slavic woman myself, I am well aware of this kind of mentality and noticed this a hell a lot.

My point is, how is this contributing to anything positive ? Most people in my country or in fact most western european countires who do have some money, don't go around bragging about it in such excessive manner while in slavic cultural circles it seems to be " normal " and good to show off the coin you own, whenever and wherever you can.

If you are slavic and act like this or plan to act like this in future, let me tell you that NO ONE over here is impressed by that nor will like you because of that. Being an arrogant, greedy Mr. Richby isn't particularly a likeable character trait.

And that being said, what you call wealth and success, most people in the west call average at best.


The reason I brought this topic up is because I have noticed that quite some Ukrainian refugees over here in my country, receive money from the government and tons of support, but act all rich and mighty as they are some sort of royals who are above everyone else, including the German people. I have noticed the same with Russians that come here as well.

Don't act like this, this only causes problems and you get dislike from western people, which in return might have negative effects on the war efforts of your country, if you are from Ukraine.

Lets act like good guests and behave respectful and humble and not take tax payers money for years and then smile into their face while going shopping at 10 am on a monday morning or having a coffee at 3 o clock during work hours while all the Germans are hussling and sweat their a... off at work to afford your vacation in Germany.

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door Raelic:

Attributing a negative trait to an entire race or nationality of people based on limited experience with a few is called something...

Well, first off, if you would have read my post, you would have figured that I have a hell a lot of experience with them, not just a few people.

Secondly, keep believing your stuff, but reality is that there is a national mentality and that there clearly are differences between cultures, believe it or not. Anyone who travelled a lot knows this, its not rocket science to figure out that people in lets say Canada behave different and have a different mentality and problem solving than people in lets say Mongolia.

Sure, we also have many similarities amongst humans and cultures, but also many differences.

Even that fact that I need to explain this is sad.

[HypersleepyNaputunia]

a little part of that is the downtrodden commnist now going overboard the opposite way, they were all crushed under socilisms heel forever and had to fight for a light bulb in line

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door Megami Blanc:

a little part of that is the downtrodden commnist now going overboard the opposite way, they were all crushed under socilisms heel forever and had to fight for a light bulb in line

My family is from a socialist country and does not act like this nor anyone I know who is from the same place.

YES, its also an important factor, but I think they have always been like this. lol.

[Raelic]

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Origineel geplaatst door Raelic:

Attributing a negative trait to an entire race or nationality of people based on limited experience with a few is called something...

Well, first off, if you would have read my post, you would have figured that I have a hell a lot of experience with them, not just a few people.

Secondly, keep believing your stuff, but reality is that there is a national mentality and that there clearly are differences between cultures, believe it or not. Anyone who travelled a lot knows this, its not rocket science to figure out that people in lets say Canada behave different and have a different mentality and problem solving than people in lets say Mongolia.

Sure, we also have many similarities amongst humans and cultures, but also many differences.

Even that fact that I need to explain this is sad.

Needing to explain obvious things is indeed sad... Especially racism to a German. Isn't it exceptionally sensitive over there? When I was there it was definitely emphasized that they try to avoid it. Seems you missed some lessons.

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door Raelic:

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Well, first off, if you would have read my post, you would have figured that I have a hell a lot of experience with them, not just a few people.

Secondly, keep believing your stuff, but reality is that there is a national mentality and that there clearly are differences between cultures, believe it or not. Anyone who travelled a lot knows this, its not rocket science to figure out that people in lets say Canada behave different and have a different mentality and problem solving than people in lets say Mongolia.

Sure, we also have many similarities amongst humans and cultures, but also many differences.

Even that fact that I need to explain this is sad.

Needing to explain obvious things is indeed sad... Especially racism to a German. Isn't it exceptionally sensitive over there? When I was there it was definitely emphasized that they try to avoid it. Seems you missed some lessons.

You lable everything as racism.

If you would have some basic education on social sciences, you would know what the hell I am talking about. I never said ALL slavs nor did I say they have ONLY bad attributes. I talked about a national mentality amongst MANY who gain some level of wealth or assume they did and how it differs to many wealthy people in lets say England or France.

Also by labelling me in regard to my nationality with " Especially racism to a German " is pretty much racist in itself.

So once again, the ones that the loudest scream " RACISM " are the actual racists.

[Shodan]

I'm in Croatia and I can say that you're 100% right. Or maybe not, because it's probably even worse than it might seem from outside. I hate it here for too many reasons. People who call this "racism" are idiots, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with (the lack of) culture which really does suck, exactly as you described.

[Raelic]

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Origineel geplaatst door Raelic:

Needing to explain obvious things is indeed sad... Especially racism to a German. Isn't it exceptionally sensitive over there? When I was there it was definitely emphasized that they try to avoid it. Seems you missed some lessons.

You lable everything as racism.

If you would have some basic education on social sciences, you would know what the hell I am talking about. I never said ALL slavs nor did I say they have ONLY bad attributes. I talked about a national mentality amongst MANY who gain some level of wealth or assume they did and how it differs to many wealthy people in lets say England or France.

Also by labelling me in regard to my nationality with " Especially racism to a German " is pretty much racist in itself.

So once again, the ones that the loudest scream " RACISM " are the actual racists.

Are you giving an entire race of people a negative attribute based on just their race or not?

You're literally doing the same thing every racist movement has done... "Such and such is doing this and it's negatively impacting me."

That's literally how it has always started.

[Acetyl]

It's interesting that it's less common to see (overtly) mixed race people fixated on racism. Likewise with heritage that refused assimilation and were largely exterminated instead.

[pasa]

@OP: noce observation that is good, while completely bad. ;-)

You observe the export-slavs. What is already the tad opposite of the "slavic culture". And yeay, those are the bad apples and evolve exactly to those jerks once put in the warm western soil -- and soon reach up to the genuine western culture too. Enough to just stay there.

If you're interested in the real culture, there's no other way but to visit its home.

[Morkonan]

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

Basically, I have met so many people from Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Moldova and so on and on, who in their home countries weren't particularly rich or wealthy, in fact most of them were quite poor due to the terribly low salary in those countries.

I noticed that almost all of them who either had a little bit of success or even managed to become wealthy abroad, mostly by getting heavily supported by my government, then completely " evolved or rather devolved " into super arrogant and greedy kind of people who think they are above everyone else, just because they can now afford an old BMW or buy themselves an iPhone.
..

While I don't have much experience with this specifically, I can contribute in general...


If you have things, getting a thing is not such an achievement.

If you don't have anything, getting anything is an achievement.


Understand? :)

This is one of the prime drivers of consumerism and "conspicuous consumption," which is the act of obtaining something just for its social/status impact, even if only interpreted, when others see that you have the thing...

So, if you have to eat garbage and hang rugs on your wall because there's no insulation to be had during desperately cold Winters, having a big fancy meal and new thick, nice, rugs... becomes a ^%%^% Big Deal.

Have you ever seen someone that has never had anyone in their family ever even go to college/university graduate? Have you seen how proud their family is, how emotionally stricken they are as they get their diploma, maybe even some reporter somewhere does a nice sympathetic story about them and the hardships they endured?

Well, people graduate universities every year, so this isn't a special thing, right? Wrong... For some people, it's life-affirming event that has more impact on their life and their family's life than it could have for any "typical university student." Are those people "arrogant" when they celebrate their "relatively mundane" achievement?

So, maybe be a little less quick to judge immigrants who may have immigrated to your country because they would never have anything if they stayed in their own. Would you be able to do the same?

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door Raelic:

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

You lable everything as racism.

If you would have some basic education on social sciences, you would know what the hell I am talking about. I never said ALL slavs nor did I say they have ONLY bad attributes. I talked about a national mentality amongst MANY who gain some level of wealth or assume they did and how it differs to many wealthy people in lets say England or France.

Also by labelling me in regard to my nationality with " Especially racism to a German " is pretty much racist in itself.

So once again, the ones that the loudest scream " RACISM " are the actual racists.

Are you giving an entire race of people a negative attribute based on just their race or not?

You're literally doing the same thing every racist movement has done... "Such and such is doing this and it's negatively impacting me."

That's literally how it has always started.

Well you are known to twist around people's words on the forums to start an argument. So I am gonna drop you on my block list.

Origineel geplaatst door Morkonan:

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Arrogance and aloofness in Slavic culture.

Basically, I have met so many people from Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Moldova and so on and on, who in their home countries weren't particularly rich or wealthy, in fact most of them were quite poor due to the terribly low salary in those countries.

I noticed that almost all of them who either had a little bit of success or even managed to become wealthy abroad, mostly by getting heavily supported by my government, then completely " evolved or rather devolved " into super arrogant and greedy kind of people who think they are above everyone else, just because they can now afford an old BMW or buy themselves an iPhone.
..

While I don't have much experience with this specifically, I can contribute in general...


If you have things, getting a thing is not such an achievement.

If you don't have anything, getting anything is an achievement.


Understand? :)

This is one of the prime drivers of consumerism and "conspicuous consumption," which is the act of obtaining something just for its social/status impact, even if only interpreted, when others see that you have the thing...

So, if you have to eat garbage and hang rugs on your wall because there's no insulation to be had during desperately cold Winters, having a big fancy meal and new thick, nice, rugs... becomes a ^%%^% Big Deal.

Have you ever seen someone that has never had anyone in their family ever even go to college/university graduate? Have you seen how proud their family is, how emotionally stricken they are as they get their diploma, maybe even some reporter somewhere does a nice sympathetic story about them and the hardships they endured?

Well, people graduate universities every year, so this isn't a special thing, right? Wrong... For some people, it's life-affirming event that has more impact on their life and their family's life than it could have for any "typical university student." Are those people "arrogant" when they celebrate their "relatively mundane" achievement?

So, maybe be a little less quick to judge immigrants who may have immigrated to your country because they would never have anything if they stayed in their own. Would you be able to do the same?

Yet this does not mean one SHOULD behave like this nor it should be accepted.

[Morkonan]

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Origineel geplaatst door Morkonan:

While I don't have much experience with this specifically, I can contribute in general...


If you have things, getting a thing is not such an achievement.

If you don't have anything, getting anything is an achievement.


Understand? :)..

Yet this does not mean one SHOULD behave like this nor it should be accepted.

You need to make more effort into understanding why someone would do that, first.

So, if someone is exhibiting behavior that isn't generally approved of, do you judge that based upon your own standards, without qualification, or do you attempt to understand "why" they may be doing that?

Try to ask yourself, first, why someone is doing something when it may seem to not be what is culturally or socially appropriate. Do that, first, before you issue judgement.


That doesn't mean, though, that someone can freely be a jerk about it. But, even then, understanding why they may act like that is still important. You can't fix something unless you know why it exists in the first place.

Note: There's a long history in those Slavic countries of having to basically fight to get even the most basic things we take for granted in "the West." If not having to deal with pre-collapse USSR, it's criminal gangs that came it its wake, it's simple scarcity and poverty, and just plain... "there aren't any things to get." They immigrated for a reason and it's likely socio-economic, so a lot of the status indicators in their old society are still going to be hanging around in their minds. Getting a "thing" would have communicated to others in their previous country that they were "special" in some way or at least wildly successful. It takes time for things like that to fade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHIcmoY3_lE

Robin Williams in "Moscow on the Hudson" - A great movie focusing on "culture shock" for a Soviet Citizen (musician) that choose to seek asylum/immigrate to the US. You may see some of the very behaviors you're complaining about being on display in that movie. (I seem to recall a few scenes, but it's been awhile since I watched it.)

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door Morkonan:

Origineel geplaatst door Shashka92:

Yet this does not mean one SHOULD behave like this nor it should be accepted.

You need to make more effort into understanding why someone would do that, first.

So, if someone is exhibiting behavior that isn't generally approved of, do you judge that based upon your own standards, without qualification, or do you attempt to understand "why" they may be doing that?

Try to ask yourself, first, why someone is doing something when it may seem to not be what is culturally or socially appropriate. Do that, first, before you issue judgement.


That doesn't mean, though, that someone can freely be a jerk about it. But, even then, understanding why they may act like that is still important. You can't fix something unless you know why it exists in the first place.

Note: There's a long history in those Slavic countries of having to basically fight to get even the most basic things we take for granted in "the West." If not having to deal with pre-collapse USSR, it's criminal gangs that came it its wake, it's simple scarcity and poverty, and just plain... "there aren't any things to get." They immigrated for a reason and it's likely socio-economic, so a lot of the status indicators in their old society are still going to be hanging around in their minds. Getting a "thing" would have communicated to others in their previous country that they were "special" in some way or at least wildly successful. It takes time for things like that to fade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHIcmoY3_lE

Robin Williams in "Moscow on the Hudson" - A great movie focusing on "culture shock" for a Soviet Citizen (musician) that choose to seek asylum/immigrate to the US. You may see some of the very behaviors you're complaining about being on display in that movie. (I seem to recall a few scenes, but it's been awhile since I watched it.)

Listen, I don't disagree with you and I understand WHY people act like this or what their motivation perhaps even intrinsical motivation is behind this.

I don't even care if they act like this in their own country, its their society, their values.

But as soon as you decide to go to another country, you are gonna play by other societal rules and if you try to apply your own " rules " in form of behavioural patterns, personality traits and so on, it can and most likely will happen that you collide with the locals.

You overcomplicate things a little.

For example, when I went to Dubai, I liked to wear a shirt and shorts, so did female family members of mine. However, when we went into any restaurant, they strictly said you must wear long sleeves and long pants, cover up your skin.

Do they understand why I don't want to wear long stuff in a hot country ? Of course they do!

But I am in their country and their values matter, not mine. So we did not argue and dressed appropriately.


Now, not only is this a law, but a different type of moral in this place.


So if I for whatever reason decide to be arrogant and act as if I am above everyone, treating everyone around me like a servant, then this might work in your own country but you will only run into problems in another country.

Do you see the point I am making ?



We can play happy people happy world as much as we want, people are different all around the globe and thats alright. But I nor others have to like how they or me behave and act in certain situations.

I think it is safe to say that in most western countries, one is considered a jerk if he acts like this because he is now more wealthy than before or gained a certain position. Besides, in Slavic countries these people are also not particularly liked. But they exist a lot more than here for the reasons you have explained.

[Enigmatic]

I thought Germans were part slav?

[Zeno]

Origineel geplaatst door εnigmatic:

I thought Germans were part slav?

They aren't, but we have all kinds of ethnicities here.
I obviously talk about slavic culture not some ethnicity one can look up in a DNA test.

I am almost 90% slavic due to my grandparents and ancestors. But I am a German and live like a German.