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Bad Aim 2023 年 4 月 12 日 下午 6:29
Lewis Carroll
Should we judge a person based on our modern values?

Take Lewis Carroll, the writer of Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass. There is no real evidence of him having a "fondness" for the real life Alice or her siblings. The real life Alice herself denied that Lewis Carroll was ever inappropriate to her. Yet we know that he took pictures of the young girl in, by today's standards, provocative poses.

But in Victorian England, photo's like that were actually very common and were not viewed as being wrong, even by legal standards.

So, should we have a negative view of Lewis Carroll for taking pictures of the young Alice in "street rags", posed to look like a prostitute? (He did not take nude photo's of the girl, though that was also common in that era)

Do we look down on Sigmund Freud and other psychologists (and medical doctors) for prescribing cocaine? Do we condemn the Medieval doctor's for prescribing blood letting for the Black Plague?

I guess what I am getting at is what I opened up with. Should we judge people from history based on our modern values or should we try to look at things through the lens of the time?

:ACODC_Helmet:
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正在显示第 16 - 30 条,共 37 条留言
jaydciv 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 7:59 
引用自 Fake
引用自 Cernunnos
Should we judge a person based on our modern values?
No.
First he should clarify, what is modern values?
jaydciv 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:00 
引用自 Cernunnos
引用自 jaydciv
First he should clarify, what is modern values?

I did try to clarify by posting a couple of examples.

Taking provocative pictures of children is ethically questionable. Taking pictures of them partially clothed is just wrong by today's standards.

Even though cocaine has very real benefits as a therapeutic drug, the downfalls of that drug outweigh the benefits. No reasonable doctor is going to prescribe it and if they attempted to, the would lose their licence and possible end up in jail.

There are just some things we do not do in today's society that were considered the norm in the past.


There is standards and "standards" and not all standards are equal.
The part of partially clothed is questionable, because think outside of the box, imagine if an NPC or an activist acuse a father showing his photos of his family (either twitter or facebook) in vacation with their kids either in the beach or in a swimming pool and the activist is acusing the father of promoting porn or being a pedo.
I mean the activist is mistaking everything, and imaging what something else mistake this like an AI or computer program, just like what happend in russian military, a boy was sent a mail to jojn the military inmediatly, the problem its, he was months since he was born, yes the machine made a mistake. And yes some people act like if theyre NPC or only thinks as mechanical being without emotions of fabricated emotions.

And the part of, some things we do not do in today society that were considered the norm in the past. Well its true some things are not the norm but some people tend to forget, like for example a supossed greek hero who helped to conquer Troy was also one who killed a baby, we all know thats a NO NO, and still modern people will get angry if a group of activist wants to outcast a boy, just because theyre parents or the father begged to cancel the abortion, for whatever reason.
Or what about the slavery, some people forgot that slavery was not made by America or Europe, it was made everywere and before the existince of the "modern countries" in fact is something has ocurring during thousands of years, and yet they dont look the modern slavery in Africa or in a comunist country, and activist only focus in western countries (wich is very low compared to those places) and not beyond.
Faster With Feeling 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:03 
But, but I thought Alice Liddell was trapped inside a mirror and anyone using that mirror would be infected by her personality as it had turned her evil with what being trapped in a mirror and all and that mirror was stored in a warehouse in North Dakota /s
Othobrithol 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:08 
I smell fudge.
Faster With Feeling 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:24 
引用自 Othobrithol
I smell fudge.

But don't walk into the gooery....
B 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:27 
He was attracted to minors. So yeah do with that as you will.
Birds 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:35 
引用自 Cernunnos
引用自 Bird
A century earlier she would have been marriable and could have died in childbirth at age 11 or 12.

Mostly myth. The Victorian era was not awash with 11 or 12 year old brides. Most young women were married by the age of 18 for the middle and upper class. Lower classes would often have the children working in factories by the age of 6.

The idea of 11 or 12 year old brides in past times have been popularized by a misunderstanding of history and by pop culture.

In England, they had a very good census system in place. If you look at census records on the Victorian area you will easily see that while some children were married to 11 or 12 year old, these were the exception, not the rule. And most of the people who married girls that young were often rich sick old men. Those people were also often reported on in the papers of the time. The Victorian public would mostly react the same way we do when we read a story of some 29 year old marrying a 14 year old that he got pregnant. (It does happen even today in the states)

Good sir, the book was published first in 1865. A hundred years prior would, by my reckoning, be 1765, during the Georgian era. An Era so Famous for its lustrious artworks, sensual poetry, and vain thirst for the pubescent state. Though at this moment it would still be Improprietous to simply wed an 11 year old and have her come to term, owing to the now well-known risk to health owing to the advancement of sciences and the general knowledge of experience, there were none the less many cases of just such a thing happening. Not only in the courts of English Nobility, but abroad as well. This is in many eyes what led to the rampant Puritan backlash which so firmly established these mores of sexuality.

Exploring the interplay and the threatening danger of adulthood from an adolescent's perspective, an idea relatively modern in conception, is at the very heart of Alice and Wonderland.
最后由 Birds 编辑于; 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:37
Faster With Feeling 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:40 
That's funny didn't 14 year old girls get married in the USA during the 1800s?
Birds 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:43 
引用自 Chasing Redheads
That's funny didn't 14 year old girls get married in the USA during the 1800s?

Ya, they'd be 15 by the time they gave birth. Totally safe, according to the logic of the time. Same thing in England, Spain, France.

Only in some states though.
最后由 Birds 编辑于; 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 9:44
Bad Aim 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 10:39 
引用自 Jester on Mushrooms
引用自 Cernunnos

Maybe you should look at the pictures rather than assume that is what I mean. By today's standards, Lewis Carroll would have been thrown in jail for many different crimes based on the pictures he took of Alice.

And the pictures he took of his sister, Lorina, did get him into trouble. Lewis Carroll and the Liddle family would never talk to each other again. Even by Victorian standards, what he did was inexcusable.

It was more than just an "ankle" that was shown on both girls.

I really hate it when people comment on a subject they know nothing about. The pure ignorance shown by this poster is amazing and what get's me is if s/he took 5 minutes to even Google what pictures I was referring to, this comment would have been avoided.

Well, it appears as though you've answered your own question. You're very welcome, I'm glad my infinite wisdom could be of assistance.

You have not made me answer anything. By modern standards, the photo's of Alice would have gotten Lewis Carroll in a lot of trouble. In Victorian standards, the photo's he took of Alice were considered perfectly fine and normal.

It was the pictures of Lorina that got Lewis in trouble. I am not, nor have I ever, asked if we should judge Lewis Carroll based on modern standards for the pictures he took of Lorina. By Victorian standards and modern standards, it was wrong.

I welcome you to look up the pictures he took of Alice and Lorina. To me it is sickening and should not be viewed. That is why I have not put a link to either picture of Alice or Lorina.
Haruspex 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 11:04 
The biggest mystery with Carroll are the many pages torn out of his journals. Imagination and speculation sort of fills in the blanks there, and well...

People like a good mystery, particularly a controversial one. The reality of the situation may very well have been an exceptionally boring one, but that doesn't keep people talking for over a century.
Q-T_3.14.exe 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 11:09 
This caught my eye
引用自 Cernunnos
Should we judge people from history based on our modern values or should we try to look at things through the lens of the time?
Separate the art from the artist. That's what I do.
Faster With Feeling 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 11:13 
Also if you looked it up there are doubts about the authenticity of the Lorina nude photo. So it might not even be the real deal
Faster With Feeling 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 11:22 
If you want to be picky and a bit more recent look up the controversy over photographer Bill Henson
最后由 Faster With Feeling 编辑于; 2023 年 4 月 13 日 下午 11:23
BlackBloodGhost 2023 年 4 月 14 日 上午 12:12 
The better question is, do you want to be held to future values for your current actions? There's no way to know what those future values will be however. But do you want to be held to them, do you want your name in the future to be known as someone who was a paedophile, evil or whatever by their standards?
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所有讨论 > Steam 论坛 > Off Topic > 主题详情
发帖日期: 2023 年 4 月 12 日 下午 6:29
回复数: 37