Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
jukeU2 17 mar. 2024 às 7:04
What is VAVLE's position on this?
I guess we all need to review VALVe's "Terms" and "Privacy" policy,
dheck this out-

"FEDS Spying on ‘EXTREMIST’ GAMERS?!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j__ocnDLAj0&list=PL2PfSWy3SKezLirrEuXPBzNCezAM8UH4N&index=3

Has anyone else heard about this?
It sounds similar to recent information discussed in online indi-news, about the "relationships" between FedGov and Banks, FedGov and BigTech, and now, again, their focused concern is on the gaming community?. If they are afraid of people playing games together, what specifically is the concern? How do they consider people who play games "extreme"? VALVe, please step up with answers.

I have my own ideas.

Edit: I thought, for clarity, I'd find and post the Intercept article and the GAO report-

https://theintercept.com/2024/03/09/fbi-dhs-gamers-extremism-violence/

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-106262
Última alteração por jukeU2; 17 mar. 2024 às 12:52
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A mostrar 76-90 de 144 comentários
Boblin the Goblin 21 mar. 2024 às 10:48 
Originalmente postado por Morkonan:
Originalmente postado por GunsForBucks:
....
Not sure how "private" chats are here, I think most people assume there are private for real and Valve wouldn't snoop without reason. Like checking for scam accounts etc. Not a general overview of all of them.

Wouldn't surprise me, but wouldn't think they would normally.

Valve's Privacy Policy on PM's is published. Yes, they can snoop and screen them for certain content, but I don't recall the details there. They are "three-party" private, so recipient, sender, facilitator (Steam).:) (Looked it up for a post in another thread awhile back. )

Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
..There is no legal obligation to respond to such letters.

Such a reply would be lose/lose if it's asking about potentially litigious infos... So, I imagine they didn't expect a reply and Valve's counsel advised them not to reply.
I mean, it's also frankly non of their business.

Valve follows the laws on how they handle that content. All these 'studies' and call-outs are just platforming for political campaigns and to attempt to push stricter speech laws that give the government more control.
Brian9824 21 mar. 2024 às 10:50 
Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
Originalmente postado por Morkonan:

Valve's Privacy Policy on PM's is published. Yes, they can snoop and screen them for certain content, but I don't recall the details there. They are "three-party" private, so recipient, sender, facilitator (Steam).:) (Looked it up for a post in another thread awhile back. )



Such a reply would be lose/lose if it's asking about potentially litigious infos... So, I imagine they didn't expect a reply and Valve's counsel advised them not to reply.
I mean, it's also frankly non of their business.

Valve follows the laws on how they handle that content. All these 'studies' and call-outs are just platforming for political campaigns and to attempt to push stricter speech laws that give the government more control.

Well some of it is also research into potential future legislation or even just them researching possible ideas to then draft a bill later to try to get it to pass.
Morkonan 21 mar. 2024 às 10:50 
Originalmente postado por GunsForBucks:
...
Oh yeah a person will input "filters" and get lists of "suspects"
..This kind of "enforcement" is a slippery slope when we are already so far down the slope already with privacy and rights.

AFAIK, this is not legal when involving US Citizens.

And, I'm just going with your analogy, here, not the actual description. If there was a filter than could do a "Please show me all Steam Posters who are breaking Federal Law" I imagine an Agent's workload would be reduced pretty dramatically...

But, if you're not a US Citizen, then things get different pretty fast.


Just like when my UK MI6 Officer tsk-tsks my posts in Off-Topic when I get a bit too... forceful. Sorry, Dave, go have a cuppa, innit? (Did I say that right?)

IOW - If "They" can watch you, They are.
Boblin the Goblin 21 mar. 2024 às 10:52 
Originalmente postado por GunsForBucks:
Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
It has to eventually be seen by a person.
Oh yeah a person will input "filters" and get lists of "suspects"

Fishing expeditions, people have no rights. What if they decide being gay is suddenly bad?
Or you said the F word too many times in private? Who decides what filters are OK and what ones are going too far? This kind of "enforcement" is a slippery slope when we are already so far down the slope already with privacy and rights.
You understand that with what you are saying happens that it would require an unimaginable amount of infrastructure and power to have running 24/7 and to upkeep?

Hell, they literally stopped archiving tweets in the Library of Congress because it became too much. If one website was too much information, imagine trying to scrape and store data from the possible millions.

That just on websites, not game chats, private chats, or clients like Steam or Discord.
RRW359 21 mar. 2024 às 10:56 
Originalmente postado por Morkonan:
Originalmente postado por GunsForBucks:
...
Oh yeah a person will input "filters" and get lists of "suspects"
..This kind of "enforcement" is a slippery slope when we are already so far down the slope already with privacy and rights.

AFAIK, this is not legal when involving US Citizens.

And, I'm just going with your analogy, here, not the actual description. If there was a filter than could do a "Please show me all Steam Posters who are breaking Federal Law" I imagine an Agent's workload would be reduced pretty dramatically...

But, if you're not a US Citizen, then things get different pretty fast.


Just like when my UK MI6 Officer tsk-tsks my posts in Off-Topic when I get a bit too... forceful. Sorry, Dave, go have a cuppa, innit? (Did I say that right?)

IOW - If "They" can watch you, They are.
Here's a question. If the UK is allowed to perform surveillance on US citizens and the US is allowed to perform surveillance on UK citizens what happens when they agree to share data?
xBCxRangers 21 mar. 2024 às 10:56 
Originalmente postado por brian9824:
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
I keep hearing by a poster that the correspondence sent to Mr Newell by the Chairwoman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Emerging Threats, in regards to extremist content on his platform, has been "ignored" (the posters words) by Mr Newell.

Also no letter was sent by the "Chairwoman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Emerging Threats" to Valve. A letter was sent by Senator Hassan who was not on the committee at the time of the letter, and since being assigned to the committee has not once mentioned Valve in ANY of her actions...

The letter was sent by a senator, with no ties to the committee.

"The Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee is the principal oversight "committee of the United States Senate. As a member of the Committee, and chair of the Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight, Senator Hassan works to oversee the Department of Homeland Security and other critical homeland security priorities to keep America safe and secure – including cybersecurity and drug interdiction efforts".

https://www.hassan.senate.gov/about/committee-assignments

"Sen. Hassan is a senior member of the Senate’s Homeland Security Committee and chairs the Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight subcommittee. Her letter asked Valve four questions and gave the company a deadline of January 15, 2023 to respond.

She asked if the imagery violated Steam’s terms of service, what process Valve uses to moderate its forums and user generated content for “extremist, racist, antisemitic, gender-based harassment, homophobic” content, the process by which Valve responds to user complaints about said content, and if the company had a safety team that proactively monitored such activity".

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy79na/senator-asks-gabe-newell-why-steam-hosts-so-much-neo-nazi-content

And so she was a senior member of the Committee, and even gave Mr Newell a deadline to respond.

And so that's just founded fact.
Última alteração por xBCxRangers; 21 mar. 2024 às 10:57
Morkonan 21 mar. 2024 às 11:04 
Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
Valve follows the laws on how they handle that content. All these 'studies' and call-outs are just platforming for political campaigns and to attempt to push stricter speech laws that give the government more control.

Yes, Valve is following the Law as well as acting on good Ethical behavior - It would not be good of them to facilitate illegal activity, especially when this platform has many underage users. Taking such precautions is good "Due Diligence." Valve is private company storefront, not a communications company.

For the rest, which I assume you were addressing link material that I haven looked at, I just see it as internet-static and posturing/sensationalism. The underlying facts are pretty clear -

I see no First Amendment enforcement requirement at all for private companies, no matter if they are "popular" or not. No private company should be required to publicly host material or messaging that it does not agree with. No private company should be required to take on the expenses and make the support requirements necessary for that material to be disseminated.

The important thing here is that this boundary between Government and Private Industry must be maintained. "Nationalizing" private industry is the first step towards tyranny... While "regulations" can be very beneficial, there's a big problem with requiring private commercial interests to act to enforce this type of First Amendment imperative.

As far as the collection of private data is concerned, I am firmly against Government agencies blanket/bulk-purchasing commercial data of consumers/users. This sort of enforcement/intel loophole to get around Federal Law needs to be addressed. It means, in effect, all agencies can just buy marketing database/private info of large groups of people for whatever purpose they wish, without appropriate oversight in how such purchases are targeted or eventually used. Because a commercial company gathered and is selling that data and not the agency in question, it's seen as not a breach of any Right.

(And, I think Privacy is the biggest unaddressed concern involving the internet, these days, not what a bunch of propeller-head tinfoil-hat wearers want to say... :)
Brian9824 21 mar. 2024 às 11:07 
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
And so that's just founded fact.

What is a founded fact is that response to the letter was optional, and as you were already shown Valve completely ignored the questions on extremism as did many others.

What is also fact is the letter did not involve the committee at all which is why it is signed by her, not the committee, and the letterhead and the letter makes no mention of the committee as they are not involved in it.

It was her own personal interest, which she has completely abandoned and made no reference of in over a year.

If she was speaking on behalf the committee the letter would make mention of the committee and he role.

Instead it was signed
Margaret Wood Hassan
United States Senator

As it was personal, and not related to any of the committee's she was involved in. So trying to claim it came from the committee is once again very sloppy police work and factually wrong.

You forget we can easily see the letter with our own eyes and see the committee wasn't involved. It doesn't matter how many times you try to mis-state the facts, we are able to see the actual letter and facts ourselves.
Última alteração por Brian9824; 21 mar. 2024 às 11:09
xBCxRangers 21 mar. 2024 às 11:09 
And looking in the article, some facts very disturbing...

"Extremist ideology in the gaming community is not new, and Steam’s groups specifically have long had a problem with celebrations of white nationalism, Nazis, and even school shooters.

School shooter William Edward Atchison posted racist messages on Steam for years before killing two people and then himself in 2017. Steam also once hosted a community named after the accelerationist Atomwaffen Division that linked back to the group’s websites and videos".

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy79na/senator-asks-gabe-newell-why-steam-hosts-so-much-neo-nazi-content

And so, we know Moderation, needs a lot of help. And perhaps, going after the discriminatory content and poster, instead of those actually "reporting" the content, may be a start.

Maybe moderators "reading" what is posted, and taken 'proactive" actions, instead or reactive actions based soley on reports, mainly used as a "downvote" button, rather than it's true use, can help.

Maybe ignoring comments name calling others "poopie heads", and wasting time banning that, instead of the real serious matters.

Mr Newell and Valve have A LOT of work to do.

And given not just the letter by high ranking official of a committee, specifically tasked with these matters on a committee monitoring these chat spaces, but now even the FBI as recent as just a couple of weeks ago, asked to be more proactive on these spaces, hopefully will have Mr Newell, wake up from his slumber, and change things, or they will change him, at least in a more regulative approach..

In addition, we as posters have to know, what 'extremism" actually is. Is extremism what the Senator says it is? Or are personal political views deemed "extremists"?

Posters will not know, until Valve may need to change its terms.
Morkonan 21 mar. 2024 às 11:12 
Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
..You understand that with what you are saying happens that it would require an unimaginable amount of infrastructure and power to have running 24/7 and to upkeep?..

Uh...

1.5 Billion monies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

The last estimate I heard was that this one center is at least capable of storing managing and providing one year's worth of all data produced by everything-internet, everywhere.

So, get together 1.5 billion monies and then whatever ongoing costs you need to cover and start building. (Pretty cheap, actually, IMO. I think that cost estimate is suspicious.)
Boblin the Goblin 21 mar. 2024 às 11:13 
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
Originalmente postado por brian9824:

Also no letter was sent by the "Chairwoman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Emerging Threats" to Valve. A letter was sent by Senator Hassan who was not on the committee at the time of the letter, and since being assigned to the committee has not once mentioned Valve in ANY of her actions...

The letter was sent by a senator, with no ties to the committee.

The Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee is the principal oversight "committee of the United States Senate. As a member of the Committee, and chair of the Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight, Senator Hassan works to oversee the Department of Homeland Security and other critical homeland security priorities to keep America safe and secure – including cybersecurity and drug interdiction efforts".

https://www.hassan.senate.gov/about/committee-assignments

"Sen. Hassan is a senior member of the Senate’s Homeland Security Committee and chairs the Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight subcommittee. Her letter asked Valve four questions and gave the company a deadline of January 15, 2023 to respond.

She asked if the imagery violated Steam’s terms of service, what process Valve uses to moderate its forums and user generated content for “extremist, racist, antisemitic, gender-based harassment, homophobic” content, the process by which Valve responds to user complaints about said content, and if the company had a safety team that proactively monitored such activity".

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy79na/senator-asks-gabe-newell-why-steam-hosts-so-much-neo-nazi-content

And so she was a senior member of the Committee, and even gave Mr Newell a deadline to respond.
She wasn't a senior member of the committee at the time of the letter.

And so that's just founded fact.
Except, even in the article;

Originalmente postado por VICE:
New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan

She did not send it as a committee member nor did the committee send it. She sent it as a Senator(which actually means something).

That's just a founded fact.
Brian9824 21 mar. 2024 às 11:14 
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
And given not just the letter by high ranking official of a committee,
Again you keep spreading false claims. The letter did not come from anyone in the committee

per your own article

New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan sent Valve a letter decrying the vast amount of white supremacist imagery in its user generated content and community spaces.

The SENATOR sent the latter, not the committee. There is a big difference. Again I suggest you actually read the letter itself which you can find a copy of here - https://www.hassan.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/senators_hassan_calls_on_largest_gaming_company_to_address_online_extremism.pdf

There is no mention of committee as it was not part of their business. Her being on he committee doesn't mean the letter was backed by the committee. They sit on numerous committee's.

Constanty claiming that the committee sent the letter when in fact the senator sent it instead is very sloppy police work and shows a bad faith efford to try to twist the circumstances to fit a false narrative you keep pushing.
Boblin the Goblin 21 mar. 2024 às 11:17 
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
snip
Wait, are you just now reading the article you've been sharing for almost a year?

The FBI isn't investigating any website about how they handle content. They are repeating the same thing they did in 2019 about wanting to have more access to the internal workings of moderation of the websites.

It didn't happen then(when it was claimed extremism was the highest it's been). It won't happen now. In fact, Valve just flat out ignored them as shown in the link shared showing the responses from various companies.
xBCxRangers 21 mar. 2024 às 11:18 
Originalmente postado por brian9824:
Originalmente postado por xBCxRangers:
And given not just the letter by high ranking official of a committee,
Again you keep spreading false claims. The letter did not come from anyone in the committee

per your own article

New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan sent Valve a letter decrying the vast amount of white supremacist imagery in its user generated content and community spaces.

The SENATOR sent the latter, not the committee. There is a big difference. Again I suggest you actually read the letter itself which you can find a copy of here - https://www.hassan.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/senators_hassan_calls_on_largest_gaming_company_to_address_online_extremism.pdf

There is no mention of committee as it was not part of their business. Her being on he committee doesn't mean the letter was backed by the committee. They sit on numerous committee's.

Constanty claiming that the committee sent the letter when in fact the senator sent it instead is very sloppy police work and shows a bad faith efford to try to twist the circumstances to fit a false narrative you keep pushing.

The facts were presented, in her position on the Committee. What the Committee is. What they investigate. What her studies have shown. The deadline for Mr Newell to respond. And some serious allegations posed to Mr Newell, about his platform.

Others like yourself can discern or post opinions about those facts.
Boblin the Goblin 21 mar. 2024 às 11:19 
Originalmente postado por Morkonan:
Originalmente postado por SlowMango:
..You understand that with what you are saying happens that it would require an unimaginable amount of infrastructure and power to have running 24/7 and to upkeep?..

Uh...

1.5 Billion monies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

The last estimate I heard was that this one center is at least capable of storing managing and providing one year's worth of all data produced by everything-internet, everywhere.

So, get together 1.5 billion monies and then whatever ongoing costs you need to cover and start building. (Pretty cheap, actually, IMO. I think that cost estimate is suspicious.)
That estimate was done 10 years ago.

The internet has grown quite a bit larger in 10 years. I'm willing to be money that even by the time that center was complete, it was already behind in storage capacity for it's purpose.
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Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
Postado a: 17 mar. 2024 às 7:04
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