Do you think the industry as a whole has turned entirely anti-consumer/anti gamer?

[[deleted]]

It seems that no matter where you go, you see overused buzz words such as "entitlement" and "over expectations" used by people who do not understand the definition of the word whenever a game does poorly. IGN pretty much coined the term "gamer entitlement" with thier ugly love letter to EA a few years back, which isn't surprising since IGN is known to suck up to publishers such as EA for money hats. Other video game "journalist" follow this method as well, which is expected since a lot of journalist are in the back pocket of major publishers these days. Hell, there is a reward show for journalist who does the most brown nosing. If that isn't the funniest thing i have ever seen, then a shoe i will wear.

But whats with the corporate shilling? Any time a game is released with gamebreaking bugs, or just doesn't work, and people complain about it, you have all these shills running in and brown nosing for the company like they beleive the company would embrace them in some disgusting, revolting, butt hug. Yes, yes, fanboys will always be misguided and over zealous with thier shilling, but what's the excuse for those who blindly defend any game developer? It seems today everything is "the gamers' fault" and all developers are innocent angels, even if the complaints are acceptable and agreed upon.

In fact, here is a drinking game for you guys. Find any forum for any game, look up general discussion section, do a search, and drink every time you see shills mindlessly use the buzzwords "entitlement", "whiners", "over-expectations", and "hater". You will literally die of alcohol poisonising in less than a hour. On second thought, don't do it. I don't want any of you guys to get hurt.

Do you agree? If so, what really caused this burst in "the gamer is always wrong, so shut up and buy out stuff you nave" mindset?

[rojimboo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

Początkowo opublikowane przez rojimboo:

So, you admit that you are basically going on about this with baseless claims and mere assumptions then ?

What were we saying about misrepresentation?

There is plenty of peer reviewed science that is in favour of DRM and its effects on a company's profits, R and D and social welfare, in the software/gaming industry.

Similar to papers that heralded the end of DRM for music.

I can quote them all if you like. But something tells me you've already made up your mind.

[supertrooper225]

Another fun drinking game is taking a drink every time you see the words, "shill", "lazy developers" or "fanboy". There are games that some people like and that others don't like. There will be people defending games they like and they will want them to be made in the future. All games have flaws and 90% of developers intend to make the best game they can.

It does not always turn out that way and it could be for several different reasons but it is not laziness, at least, 95% of the time. Anyone who likes to say that are definitely mindless. People who have done coding work know exactly how difficult and time consuming it is.

Anti-consumerism has been a big buzz word lately but people are sometimes simply anti-corporate. The industry isn't really against the customer. They depend on the consumer to survive. Like it or not, these people provide a service and/or product to all gamers and they deserve to have a little respect just like consumers do.

[76561198117027862]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rojimboo:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

So, you admit that you are basically going on about this with baseless claims and mere assumptions then ?

What were we saying about misrepresentation?

There is plenty of peer reviewed science that is in favour of DRM and its effects on a company's profits, R and D and social welfare, in the software/gaming industry.

Similar to papers that heralded the end of DRM for music.

I can quote them all if you like. But something tells me you've already made up your mind.

I have seen everything you have sourced so far and what I have seen are exactly that, baseless claims and assumptions.

If you have something different, feel free.

[Noctuary]

Someone brought up world of goo earlier. I'd just like to point out how stupid they were for releasing a decent game in very limited copies as a retail exclusive.

Also if anyone thinks Projekt Red or whoever the hell making a popular large budget title like Witcher 2 DRM free everywhere was a great idea I'd like to see their evidence. Of course a highly popular and anticipated game that has no DRM is going to get pirated. Imagine if CoD (back when it was popular) somehow became DRM free with DRM free multiplayer. The exact same thing would happen.

All I'm saying is that this is the age of DRM. Companies do stupid things and get punished, nothing tragic about that.

On top of that you can flaunt whatever ratios you want. The fact is that most of piracy is pretty much trying out the game beforehand. Demos are becoming scarce in order to hide the declining quality and the increasingly rushed on release state of games. This is just compensation.

[http://www.dailytech.com/Nearly+Half+of+Americans+Pirate+Casually+But+Pirates+Purchase+More+Legal+Content/article29702.htm] Look at this. It's not like there's a specific caste of people that just pirate everything and buy nothing that you finger pointers have invented. [/url]

Don't you think logically that the people who enjoy media would be more likely to purchase it on average.

One of the major things I like about steam besides centralization is the fact that they are fighting piracy in the best way possible, by making games cheaper and widely available. I remember Gabe himself saying that piracy was a "non issue".

I'm not asking anyone here to tell, but ask yourself: "Do you pirate?". If so then just by being a part of steam you are defying that "typical pirate" steryotype.

[rojimboo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

I have seen everything you have sourced so far and what I have seen are exactly that, baseless claims and assumptions.

If you have something different, feel free.

Are you for real?

You just waive a magic wand and dismiss peer reviewed research with saying a mere 4 words "baseless claims and assumptions".

What was your objection to the HADOPI paper? I already asked you that, you just ignored me? There also appears to be a sizeable market in converting pirates to purchase the good. Danaher et. al (2012) analysed the effect the HADOPI law in France had on music sales, a legislative measure enacted by the government to track torrenting activities of pirates and first warn them and then fine them. Their paper finds that the law in France caused a 20-25% increase in French music sales. Considering these are largely casual pirates, i.e. the 'hardcore' pirates have multiple options to circumvent the law through the usage of VPN, proxies or Bittorent protocol encryption, the case is made for there existing a large market to convert into sales. Another example of there being a substantial amount of casual pirates ready to buy the product given enough incentive, is that of Megaupload and its sister sites. Danaher et Smith (2013) analysed the impact of the sites shutdown on digital motion picture sales and found that a 1% reduction in Megaupload usage within a particular country caused a 2.5%-3.8% increase in digital sales. They calculated "that this increase translates into a 6-10% increase in revenues from digital movie sales and rentals for two major studios in the 18 weeks after the Megaupload shutdown".

http://glt13-programm.linuxtage.at/attachments/106_2012-01-01_HADOPI-IFPI-Study_1.pdf

What about the Danaher book chapter that collected ALL science on the matter, on both sides of the argument and established there was a statistically significant reduction in sales due to piracy? The impact that digital piracy has on sales has been researched extensively. Danaher et al. (2013) collect the dozens of papers from both sides of the argument and conclude that "piracy results in a statistically significant reduction in sales, particularly in emerging digital channels".
https://techpolicyinstitute.org/files/smith_danaher_telang_ipe%20chapter.pdf

What about the Jain paper that recommends stricter copyright enforcement for the applicable scenarios?


http://people.tamu.edu/~sjain/papers/published%20piracy%20paper.pdf

According to Jain(2008), “Many industry analysts see copying as one of the key threats to profitability and innovation. They claim that copying leads to higher prices for legitimate users, lower profits for the firms, reduced new product innovation and is generally harmful to society .” The paper continues to examine the impact of illegal copying of software and other similar intellectual properties on firms’ prices, profits, and quality choices, even when there are no network effects and the market is saturated.


What about Hill's book?

Hill,C. 2007, Digital piracy: Causes, consequences,and strategic responses’, Asia Pacific J Manage (2007) 24:9–25,DOI 10.1007/s10490-006-9025-0
http://www.academia.edu/5175526/Digital_piracy_Causes_consequences_and_strategic_responses

Hill (2007) established the only effective strategic responses copyright holders can adopt to deal with pirating. His approach involved first establishing the causes of copying by prior work done (1) work on moral development (Kohlberg, 1969), (2)equity theory (Adams, 1963; Kabanoff, 1991), and (3) moral intensity (Jones, 1991). Based on the causes and economic consequences, both in a static and dynamic sense, Hill then proceeds to offer the only effective strategic responses that copyright-holders can pursue, of which there are seven. The fourth one is relevant with several games like Anno 2070, which is “offer something extra to consumers who purchase the legal good”. “One solution that can works well for computer software is to offer online services, such as periodic upgrades and security patches, to consumers who register the legal product using a security code that is unique to every legal copy of the product. Since those who purchase pirated copies do not have access to a security code, they cannot get these benefits. This strategy effectively raises the value of the legal product, decreasing the perception of inequity.”

What about Yoon's paper?

http://beta.orionsshoulders.com/Resources/articles/26_22305_%20().pdf

Following Hill's footsteps and dealing with planned behaviour and ethics theory, Yoon (2011) finds DRM effective at countering piracy: 'First, this study reveals that moral obligation is the most infuential factor on intention to commit digital piracy. According to Reidenbach and Robin (1990) a popular understanding of these normative beliefs comes to the general public. Therefore, it is desirable to enlighten people and imprint into their minds the fact that pirating is morally wrong and it is bad behavior through advertisements in the mass media, such as via TV broadcasting. Second, perceived behavioral control is a more influential factor in pirating digital materials. It means that individuals who have the skills and resources to pirate digital materials have a higher intention of pirate digital materials. Therefe in order to make pirating a much more difficult thing to accomplish for such people, software and digital media industries should use technologies actively to secure their digital materials, such as DRM.'

I could go on, but why should I do?

You are the one claiming DRM results in a loss of sales likely due to its intrusiveness. Where is your proof? Where are your papers and statistics?

I'm waiting.

[Noctuary]

Początkowo opublikowane przez supertrooper225:

Another fun drinking game is taking a drink every time you see the words, "shill", "lazy developers" or "fanboy". There are games that some people like and that others don't like. There will be people defending games they like and they will want them to be made in the future. All games have flaws and 90% of developers intend to make the best game they can.

It does not always turn out that way and it could be for several different reasons but it is not laziness, at least, 95% of the time. Anyone who likes to say that are definitely mindless. People who have done coding work know exactly how difficult and time consuming it is.

Anti-consumerism has been a big buzz word lately but people are sometimes simply anti-corporate. The industry isn't really against the customer. They depend on the consumer to survive. Like it or not, these people provide a service and/or product to all gamers and they deserve to have a little respect just like consumers do.

Anti-consumer is a great word to bring up. Especially when applying it to indie devs lol. In truth the AAA section will almost always give us what they think we will buy. This is why we have 10 or 11 (I lost count) Call of Duty games. Because people will buy them. It's true the DLC and DRM is getting out of hand but we can stop this by not buying their games.

[Noctuary]

@rojimboo Peer reviewed means ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Academia is a cesspit of bias for political reasons I'm not going to get in here.

Sure, if steam didn't exist and every single game was DRM free then maybe piracy would be an issue.

[supertrooper225]

Początkowo opublikowane przez The Defiler:

Początkowo opublikowane przez supertrooper225:

Another fun drinking game is taking a drink every time you see the words, "shill", "lazy developers" or "fanboy". There are games that some people like and that others don't like. There will be people defending games they like and they will want them to be made in the future. All games have flaws and 90% of developers intend to make the best game they can.

It does not always turn out that way and it could be for several different reasons but it is not laziness, at least, 95% of the time. Anyone who likes to say that are definitely mindless. People who have done coding work know exactly how difficult and time consuming it is.

Anti-consumerism has been a big buzz word lately but people are sometimes simply anti-corporate. The industry isn't really against the customer. They depend on the consumer to survive. Like it or not, these people provide a service and/or product to all gamers and they deserve to have a little respect just like consumers do.

Anti-consumer is a great word to bring up. Especially when applying it to indie devs lol. In truth the AAA section will almost always give us what they think we will buy. This is why we have 10 or 11 (I lost count) Call of Duty games. Because people will buy them. It's true the DLC and DRM is getting out of hand but we can stop this by not buying their games.

Exactly, good point. That is why a lot of practices are pushed. Because they work and bring in money. A really big problem are the people that have complaints with this or that game yet buy them anyway (AC: Unity: facepalm). That will change nothing...nada.

[76561198117027862]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rojimboo:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

I have seen everything you have sourced so far and what I have seen are exactly that, baseless claims and assumptions.

If you have something different, feel free.

Are you for real?

You just waive a magic wand and dismiss peer reviewed research with saying a mere 4 words "baseless claims and assumptions".

Because when that is all you put infront of me, any further effort from my part is simply a waste of time.

I have already pointed out the major flaw in your so called evidence to support your claims. You or perhaps I should say, they are equating corelation to causation. And then you have the general fluff that they throw around at their leisure as if to make it seem much more plausible.

And you seem to forget. You made the claim about DRM. I am simply playing along.

[Noctuary]

@supertrooper225 There are 2 reasons why people would buy a game like AC: Unity.

1: A review site told them to. (Hype)

2: Brand recognition. (Same mechanics, but also hype from 7 years ago)

[rojimboo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kainochi:

Diablo 3 was hacked and botted. Just look up the infamous gold hack event called 2bees. The servers are still pretty crappy, and the game has devolved into RNG on RNG on RNG. Just recently, Blizzard decided to add another layer of RNG.

Rubbish. Torrent D3 and play it for me would you? Upload a Youtube video of you doing it. Botting is different, but even that was fixed.

DRM did not sell Diablo 3. Diablo 3 rode on the curtails of success of Diablo 2. Was Diablo 2 pirated? Yep, but that did not stop it from becoming one of the best selling games of 2008. Not bad for single player game with muiltplayer cababilities released in 2000.

And it would have sold even more with online DRM. Actually, net was kinda slow back then, let's assume it wasn't so my argument stands.

Also, DRM pushed gamers away. Diablo 3 sold nearly 15 million copies in the first week thanks to Diablo 2. Barely a million were playing a month after release, and that number shrank drastically as time grew on. ROS sold only 3.3 million, with that number drastically shrinking off a month after release.

Source? Regardless, most popular PC game of all time with millions of copies of ROS sold. ROS had a steep price mind you for an expansion pack which could have influenced many gamers. The truth of the matter is, we don't really know how many didn't buy because of DRM. But the point stands - it would have been the most pirated game of all time, as per Ghazi.

You would expect the always online DRM keep those players, and not lose them.

True end-game content was only relatively recently added with ladders and seasons. Most people spent however many hundreds of hours and left it. I myself have 1500+hours on hardcore and counting, just waiting now for season 2 to start.

[76561198117027862]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rojimboo:

And it would have sold even more with online DRM. Actually, net was kinda slow back then, let's assume it wasn't so my argument stands.

That is where the problem lies. Your argument doesn't stand. You simply believe it does.

You are assuming and trying to pass those assumptions as facts.

[rojimboo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

snip

And you've lost.

Why?

Because of my magic wand.

See how fun that is in a debate? Also note the lack of quotes. And words. And reasoning. My name is Agni.

[supertrooper225]

Początkowo opublikowane przez The Defiler:

@supertrooper225 There are 2 reasons why people would buy a game like AC: Unity.

1: A review site told them to. (Hype)

2: Brand recognition. (Same mechanics, but also hype from 7 years ago)

Ah, I dug Assasins Creed games but I have had enough. So I didn't buy it this year because yearly releases wear me out on a game series. I did my part. I don't let any publication of any kind tell me what I should or should not buy. You will get burned eventually with that method. I will use them to gather information for a decision that I weigh myself though. People who like a game will buy it until they don't like it so that is a decent enough reason to continue to buy it, I suppose.

I was referring to the people who heard about the technical limitations or know about last years AC games' performance troubles. They complained and complained and when the sequel came out.... they bought it and acted surprised the situation was similair. There is your facepalm. I find that odd. Change will occur when sales deem the changes necessary, otherwise the change is viewed as risky to a beneficial series with a lot of popularity. Just one of those things.

[76561198117027862]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rojimboo:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Agni:

snip

And you've lost.

Why?

Because of my magic wand.

See how fun that is in a debate? Also note the lack of quotes. And words. And reasoning. My name is Agni.

This is not about winning or losing, nor is it of my concern. Perhaps were I younger, I might have cared.

Also, you might be fine with being liberal with words, but I am not. I like to be precise and compact. And I have given my reasoning, simply because they were not the ones you wanted to hear or in this particular case, read, doesn't make them vanish into thin air. But if you rather believe that to be the truth of the situation, feel free.