I think Kickstarter is a much better way than early accsess

[christian.hintzsche]

what i want to say is you get more money with kickstarter then you get with early accsess. So you can develope a game in a more reasonable time. And when you see oh we dont get enough money to buy 100 developers then better leave it.

[Tux]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

your getting off topic and derailing the conversation again

What? Where? Please elaborate.

Or did you just want to dodge the question, for a third time?

this conversation is not about debating on the word 'feedback loop' or 'postive or negitive feedback'
It can be however regarding the concept I am refering to but not debating over the meaning on the words I choose to describe it. That said, even that (the subject I have been talking about) is a bit off topic anyway.

The real topic is how Kickstarter is more of a garden for scams then Early Access

[rojimboo]

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

What? Where? Please elaborate.

Or did you just want to dodge the question, for a third time?

this conversation is not about debating on the word 'feedback loop' or 'postive or negitive feedback'
It can be however regarding the concept I am refering to but not debating over the meaning on the words I choose to describe it. That said, even that (the subject I have been talking about) is a bit off topic anyway.

The real topic is how Kickstarter is more of a garden for scams then Early Access

So you did just want to dodge the question again.

It baffles the mind how a 48 year old man is afraid of answering a question.

I will take your silence t o mean that ksp is considerably better now than it was 6 months ago.

[Tux]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

this conversation is not about debating on the word 'feedback loop' or 'postive or negitive feedback'
It can be however regarding the concept I am refering to but not debating over the meaning on the words I choose to describe it. That said, even that (the subject I have been talking about) is a bit off topic anyway.

The real topic is how Kickstarter is more of a garden for scams then Early Access

So you did just want to dodge the question again.

It baffles the mind how a 48 year old man is afraid of answering a question.

I will take your silence t o mean that ksp is considerably better now than it was 6 months ago.

and this has what to do with the topic?

[rojimboo]

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

So you did just want to dodge the question again.

It baffles the mind how a 48 year old man is afraid of answering a question.

I will take your silence t o mean that ksp is considerably better now than it was 6 months ago.

and this has what to do with the topic?

Surely the mighty tux can keep up.

Maybe not.

The point is that we have agreed and shown now that for the same game, finished game>unfinished game.

Now consider how easy it is to abuse early access and never finish a game. That is a flaw in the system and it exposes the weaknesses in it unlike in kick starter where dreams become reality and games are made that would never have been made without ks.

And we've come full circle.

[Tux]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

and this has what to do with the topic?

Surely the mighty tux can keep up.

Maybe not.

The point is that we have agreed and shown now that for the same game, finished game>unfinished game.

Now consider how easy it is to abuse early access and never finish a game. That is a flaw in the system and it exposes the weaknesses in it unlike in kick starter where dreams become reality and games are made that would never have been made without ks.

And we've come full circle.

I dont want my games to ever be finished.

Finished is not better than unfinished.

Order 1882 is 'finished' but it sure aint better than Kerbal which is not finished

[rojimboo]

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Surely the mighty tux can keep up.

Maybe not.

The point is that we have agreed and shown now that for the same game, finished game>unfinished game.

Now consider how easy it is to abuse early access and never finish a game. That is a flaw in the system and it exposes the weaknesses in it unlike in kick starter where dreams become reality and games are made that would never have been made without ks.

And we've come full circle.

I dont want my games to ever be finished.

Finished is not better than unfinished.

Order 1882 is 'finished' but it sure aint better than Kerbal which is not finished

If only the world could be like you tux. We would have each studio developing one game forever.

How awesome would that be? A handful of games on the market, each adding and removing features based on majority vote, poor suckers not getting paid after initial purchase.

Hey, at least there would be job security for the infinitely developing devs.

[Tux]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

I dont want my games to ever be finished.

Finished is not better than unfinished.

Order 1882 is 'finished' but it sure aint better than Kerbal which is not finished

If only the world could be like you tux. We would have each studio developing one game forever.

How awesome would that be? A handful of games on the market, each adding and removing features based on majority vote, poor suckers not getting paid after initial purchase.

Hey, at least there would be job security for the infinitely developing devs.

In Agile Programming it is as you described however in game programing the adpotion of Agile with the customer is slightly different.
In traditional Agile Programing you give exactly what the customer asks and gives you feedback on.

In gaming is more like suggestions. Game developers dont have to implement the suggestions but they can tell what is important to a gamer once they get that feedback.

Case in point, 7 Days to Die a lot of gamers do not like the dog horde, will they change it? maybe maybe not depends on the overall plans of the game but at least they understand its something the gamer is concerned about.

Somehow you seem to think that the best way to create a game is to do it with ZERO feedback from the gaming community. Just design a game based on your image, and not show it to anyone until its completed.

well that is actually a bad way to design a game

[WhiteKnight77]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

WhiteKnight77님이 먼저 게시:

There are no ad hominens or trolling, just the painful truth that you appear to not be able to handle.

Just derailment.

Can you explain the reasoning behind yOur post and why it is on topic?

Because I can't.

I cannot help if you cannot keep up. You derail threads by coming in and claiming everything is scams even when that is not the gist of the original post.

[rojimboo]

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

If only the world could be like you tux. We would have each studio developing one game forever.

How awesome would that be? A handful of games on the market, each adding and removing features based on majority vote, poor suckers not getting paid after initial purchase.

Hey, at least there would be job security for the infinitely developing devs.

In Agile Programming it is as you described however in game programing the adpotion of Agile with the customer is slightly different.
In traditional Agile Programing you give exactly what the customer asks and gives you feedback on.

In gaming is more like suggestions. Game developers dont have to implement the suggestions but they can tell what is important to a gamer once they get that feedback.

Case in point, 7 Days to Die a lot of gamers do not like the dog horde, will they change it? maybe maybe not depends on the overall plans of the game but at least they understand its something the gamer is concerned about.

Somehow you seem to think that the best way to create a game is to do it with ZERO feedback from the gaming community. Just design a game based on your image, and not show it to anyone until its completed.

well that is actually a bad way to design a game

Diablo 3 has one of the best post-release development teams on the planet. They continually add new features, maps, items, powers, and remove unwanted ones based on a Public Test Realm (PTR). All with the funding of the initial release and one expansion pack.

They didn't go through Early Access.

I could cite multiple other games where post-release features were added or removed. Early Access does not necessarily belong in this picture, it is not a mandatory requirement for these things to happen.

So I'm not sure what your point is.

[rojimboo]

WhiteKnight77님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

Just derailment.

Can you explain the reasoning behind yOur post and why it is on topic?

Because I can't.

I cannot help if you cannot keep up. You derail threads by coming in and claiming everything is scams even when that is not the gist of the original post.

More personal attacks?

And where have I claimed 'everything is a scam' and derailed the thread?

You on the other hand basically just admitted to derailing the thread as you cannot even yourself explain that post's on-topic relevancy.

[The Courier]

I'd jst like to point out that (if not already)
Some games on greenlight, are funded through kickstarter.
And greenlighted games, are easliy a part of ''early access''
That is to say, I can see your point. Some of the games are as pricey as other games that are completed. Early access should be cheap, but we need to know that a game does not come into existence without some sort of income.

To point out one fatal blow to these types of games, would be stomping land.
Now that was a bust.
But we have also seen games like 7 days to die and unturned, which are games that are getting updated frequently.

To me, it doesn't really matter where they are funded. the most important would be that the developer/s are serious about their game, and if it's early access, players also have a duty to report any bugs they find. That is to say, you don't have to, but if you report it, chances are it'll be gone soon. Especially if alot of people had it.

Look at stranded deep for example. When you left your island, your bed would despawn. The very next update, the developers fixed it, as well as discovering a serious issue in their game, and patching it up, which was connected to the missing beds.


What i do need to point out though, is one thing that's really hurting, is the pricetag on several games. Some of the games shouldn't even be called alpha stage games yet. An alpha stage game will have alot of bugs, yes. but the games ''skeleton'' also needs to be done by now, and the game somewhat playable.
Alpha is the stage where you fix bugs, introduce new mechanics and the like, and generally polish the game. In the beta, you focus on removing bugs, and tweaking core systems in the game.

that's how I think it is... I dunno, it's been a long time since I read about game development stages, I could be completely off track here.

[christian.hintzsche]

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

christian.hintzsche님이 먼저 게시:

what i want to say is you get more money with kickstarter then you get with early accsess. So you can develope a game in a more reasonable time. And when you see oh we dont get enough money to buy 100 developers then better leave it.

I could not disagree more

donating to Kickstarter based on a screenshot and a game description
vs
donating and getting a game I can play.

no contest.

so you want a demo foreever when they cant get enough money with early accsess?

[WhiteKnight77]

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

If the program allows for rampant abuse of the system and there is no enforcement of the rules and guidelines ( which actually state by Valve 'don't launch in early access if you cannot fund development with very few or no sales'), then the program is at fault, simple as that.

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

WhiteKnight77님이 먼저 게시:

I cannot help if you cannot keep up. You derail threads by coming in and claiming everything is scams even when that is not the gist of the original post.

More personal attacks?

And where have I claimed 'everything is a scam' and derailed the thread?

You on the other hand basically just admitted to derailing the thread as you cannot even yourself explain that post's on-topic relevancy.

The above is your very first post in this thread. You claim abuse of the system yet do not provide any solid proof of it. When asked to provide such later on, you do not. This is where the thread was derailed. It has nothing to do with how Kickstarter is better and Early Access isn't as is the OP's viewpoint.

Pot meet kettle.

[rojimboo]

WhiteKnight77님이 먼저 게시:

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

If the program allows for rampant abuse of the system and there is no enforcement of the rules and guidelines ( which actually state by Valve 'don't launch in early access if you cannot fund development with very few or no sales'), then the program is at fault, simple as that.

rojimboo님이 먼저 게시:

More personal attacks?

And where have I claimed 'everything is a scam' and derailed the thread?

You on the other hand basically just admitted to derailing the thread as you cannot even yourself explain that post's on-topic relevancy.

The above is your very first post in this thread. You claim abuse of the system yet do not provide any solid proof of it. When asked to provide such later on, you do not. This is where the thread was derailed. It has nothing to do with how Kickstarter is better and Early Access isn't as is the OP's viewpoint.

Pot meet kettle.

How does

'rampant abuse of the system' as defined by breaking Valve's rule regarding funding of development via early access sales

=

'everything is a scam' ?

Hmmm?

And you just ignored that massive post of yours which you still cannot explain the relevancy of.

It's called derailment. Look in the mirror.

What's next in your guide for dummies?

[Tux]

christian.hintzsche님이 먼저 게시:

Tux님이 먼저 게시:

I could not disagree more

donating to Kickstarter based on a screenshot and a game description
vs
donating and getting a game I can play.

no contest.

so you want a demo foreever when they cant get enough money with early accsess?

yes.

and in addition lets review

Kickstarter = garden for scams MORE SO than
Early Access.

clear?