Wszystkie dyskusje > Fora Steam > Off Topic > Szczegóły wątku
Prinzip 29 października 2024 o 5:15
Hey guys, is like capitalism good?
I don't know guys, I just don't feel like reading about it. Damn, guys, please tell me if capitalism is good so I don't have to bother to read or think for myself, guys.
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Wyświetlanie 16-30 z 87 komentarzy
Dutchgamer1982 29 października 2024 o 8:42 
capitalism works, but what we have today (neoliberalism, neocapitalism, corporatism & globalism) does totally NOT work.

capitalism only works if founded on an excisting social contract.
-> what is a social contract.. well in short it is people not wanting to screw eachother over.

if you live in a small isolated settlement, with the same people day in day out.. than screwing one of them over.. very much is not in your interest.. as you need that community to reasonably like you to live an enjoyable live.. if they all shun you.. things get very hard for you.
in such a setting capitalism works well..

an example of this in the modern world is when in early industriliasation a small factory worker lived in the same town as his employees.. sure he may have had the mayor, and other posh people of the town as personal friends, and live in a nicer neigbourhood and house than his employees.. but the difference in income between what we call "the steak neighbourhood" and "the ground beef neighbourhood" was much smaller than today.. likely the factory owner earned only 10 times as much annually as his lowest paid employee.

on top of this as you live in this town.. and your only potential employees are it's residents.. it is in your own interest to invest in both the town and your residents wellbeing.
-you would not polute with your factory to much.. for well.. that will harm the very health of yourself and your employees aka it hurts your profit.
-you would sponsor sport activities, placing lantarns to make the streets safer, libraries, parks and education.. for those things will beatify your own town.. and as the town basicly is an extention of yourself improving it.. will improve your prestige.. and as added bonus it makes your employees better educated and healthier.. which makes them more effective workers.
thats when capitalism worked quite well.

but that was than.. this early idyllic situation is no more..
that "factory owner" does not really own the factory no more.. but is a mere "govenour" amounted as ceo for one year.. and he does not live in the town the factory is in, but somehwere sheltered away from any (sometimes litteral) fallout.. it's production causes.
added to that instrad of every factory owned by 1 owner.. this corporation now owns a million factories all over the globe.. and thus does not have to invest in it's employees either.. it will like a locust only go where employees give the most output for the lowest pay.. without any consideration to maintain let alone improve them..
->
and thats the stage of capitalism we are in.. which is bad for all.. even goverments are powerless..
when compagnies tried to ferry in people from other towns.. to break strikes.. unions ended that.
when compagnies tied to ferry in people from other nations.. goverments blocked that with laws,
but in the current globalist world.. even goverments are toys.. played out against eachother by the corporations for who is willing to offer the worst labour laws and lowest taxes.. just as once it was done vs individual employees earlier..

and thats not even the whole story.. today more money is earned by non economic processes.
-> what I mean by that.. is a factory at least produces goods.. that are available to the public..
the more goods & services are created.. the bigger the real economy.
the fake economy = mere numbers.. if first the global production is 100 items priced 10 each.. and than it is made into 90 items priced 15 each.. than the fake economy aka gdp grows.. but the real economy how much goods and services are available scrinks.
and today more money is earned by fake economy.. than by the real economy.
-risk investors buying out that 100 year factory.. a healthy profitable compagny.
than they predatory loan to their own compagny so that on paper that compagny is running in debt.. so no taxes are due.. and they can strangle the unions for ever worse labour conditions.. next step they sell off all the asets.. like now the factory is owned by somebody else and only rented by them... than they rake up a massive debt with suppliers... and that landlord... and purposingly let the whole thing go bust..
**effect. many people now unemployed.. many suppliers now left with unpaid bills and without a customer they had.. and the public without a good there was enough demand for to warrant it's excistant.. a gross destruction of real economic capital.
yet those risk investors doing this make billions..
so there is more money to be earned destroying real economy.. than by building it..

any such shenenigans would NEVER fly if it was still the small colonial settlement.
those "investors" would have never be allowed to keep their loot.. been basnished and disowned (if not outright hanged) and the factory would still existi.

what has happend here is capitalism no longer is tied to the social contract.. and without that social contract.. it is one of the worst systems imaginable..

Ostatnio edytowany przez: Dutchgamer1982; 29 października 2024 o 8:44
qb 29 października 2024 o 8:51 
it works that way cause all of the current regimes are tied into one corporate driven environments, the only reason communist regimes and other exist is to support that single state, but they cantafford it you know if all people had a good prosperous materiliast driven thing going for them we would not have a government cause planet would not be able to take a hold of it. all good materialist lifestyle need someone to bescrewed over like endless sweatshops that assemble a single iphone without them it would cost something like 10k dollars for entry model.
Ulfrinn 29 października 2024 o 8:58 
Początkowo opublikowane przez sleeps:
Początkowo opublikowane przez Ulfrinn:

Wouldn't really be so easy if big business didn't get the breaks, grants, and exemptions that small businesses don't. Case in point "too big to fail" where the government decided some corporations had more of a right to exist than others. And for the record, that isn't capitalism once government starts picking winners and losers. It's fascism by Mussolini's definition, on it's way to socialism.
when people say that fallout is "anti capitalist", i know ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ happens. I'm no lore buff but i dig to the lore long enough to conclude that the kind of America they have is fascist. plus, it's still anti war

The point I was making though is many people tend to attribute things that are an affront to capitalism, to capitalism. Things that bring us closer to socialism for example, such as "too big to fail." For capitalism to function properly, big corporations need to be able to fail. GM shouldn't exist now, and a lot of banks who embezzled people's money shouldn't exist now, but they do, because government stepped in to save them. This government relationship with businesses isn't capitalist at all. It's no longer "private sector" when it survives on government money. It is closer to the textbook definition of fascism/socialism at that point.

Were these businesses allowed to fail, smaller ones would have taken their place, and the competition would have flourished in those markets.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: Ulfrinn; 29 października 2024 o 8:59
Dutchgamer1982 29 października 2024 o 9:14 
Początkowo opublikowane przez qb:
it works that way cause all of the current regimes are tied into one corporate driven environments, the only reason communist regimes and other exist is to support that single state, but they cantafford it you know if all people had a good prosperous materiliast driven thing going for them we would not have a government cause planet would not be able to take a hold of it. all good materialist lifestyle need someone to bescrewed over like endless sweatshops that assemble a single iphone without them it would cost something like 10k dollars for entry model.

not neccecairely..

the global gdp / people on earth = 1600 euro per month per person.
I don't know for you but most people certainly families do NOT earn anything close to that even in the west.. certainly not after income tax.

on top of that if you divide all the land in the world by the amount of people.. every person would own 1.8 hectares of land.. 1 hectares of it arable land..
as you need about 0.4 hectares of arable land to sustain 1 person (0.6 if you also want to add meat to the diet).. thats still plenty left for all other needs

so there is both the economy and land to have every person on earth to live a quite comfortable life.. but most EVEN most in the western world are robbed by a very small elite who effectiely hoards all the resources and land..

sure if EVERY person in the world earned that.. that gave purchase power to those who have now non.. and it would shift prices of good and demands.

the demand for very expensive luxery goods like million euro boats would drop to near 0.. but demand for more basic goods like medicine and food would increase... as those who now can simply not afford anything but a 3d world slumhut.. and a bowl of rice.. on the verge of starving would have equal change to buy meat, fruit, and medicine as more wealthy nations peoples.

still as proven there IS enough land.. it would merely be a shift in where goods and labour is used for.

and this current economy does not even factor in what would happen if we gave 3d world countries acces to be run by proper democratic and non corrupt goverments, it's people given western quality educations, and it's industry modernised.. aka if every person on earth would also be raised to the optimal productivity..

that there likely would be even more goods and services available.. per person.. especially with automatisation..

the issue is now.. that :
the ceo of the compagny who only does a moderate service job.. gets paid waaay more than the actual labour he puts in.
the stockholders of the compagny who put in ZERO labour at all.. leech away the lions share of what is paid for the phone

that 1000 euro phone likely goes
*1 cent for the poor person who mined it's materials (with added cost of his health and his town poluted)
*4 cent for the owner of that mine
** 25 cent for the persons who turned these raw resources into your phone
**1.7 euro for the factory owners who exploit them.
**3 euro for those who ship the materials and phones around the globe
**5 euro bribe/taxes to goverments to keep the scam going
**10 euro to the store who sells you the phone
**30 euro to the staff of the compagny (designers, sales reps, engineers etc)
**50 euro to the ceo who manages the compagny
**900 euro to the shareholders who did ZERO labour
and therein lies the issue..

if we cut away that sharholders share.. and reduce that ceo share to better reflect the actual work he does... and pay all the others fairly... it still is very likely that phone will also be made cheaper...

**customers are ripped off with high prices
**citycens/goverments are ripped off with low taxes
**supplies are ripped off with low prices (made able by bribing the regimes above them)
**employees are ripped off with low wages..

Ostatnio edytowany przez: Dutchgamer1982; 29 października 2024 o 9:26
sleeps 29 października 2024 o 9:24 
Początkowo opublikowane przez Ulfrinn:
Początkowo opublikowane przez sleeps:
when people say that fallout is "anti capitalist", i know ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ happens. I'm no lore buff but i dig to the lore long enough to conclude that the kind of America they have is fascist. plus, it's still anti war

The point I was making though is many people tend to attribute things that are an affront to capitalism, to capitalism. Things that bring us closer to socialism for example, such as "too big to fail." For capitalism to function properly, big corporations need to be able to fail. GM shouldn't exist now, and a lot of banks who embezzled people's money shouldn't exist now, but they do, because government stepped in to save them. This government relationship with businesses isn't capitalist at all. It's no longer "private sector" when it survives on government money. It is closer to the textbook definition of fascism/socialism at that point.

Were these businesses allowed to fail, smaller ones would have taken their place, and the competition would have flourished in those markets.
exactly. in a capitalist system, whatever true or under some variants of it like "social capitalism", companies should experience loss as much as they experience gain, especially big companies due to their sheer size.

my point is more of how the argument against capitalism is mirrored into something that is not yet conflated, like mercantilism/colonialism and corporatism/corporatocracy. the biggest example here is bethesda's fallout. again, the game/show expects us to believe that it's about capitalism when if you look at the deeper detail, it's not. the enclave and their involvement with these companies, especially vault tec, supports that. another one is ffvii which is not anti-capitalist as much as it is pro environment but shinra and ultimately midgar is corporatocratic especially when the company itself IS the governing power. i think it can be said the same with the lego movie.

it's hard to find a supposed commentary of capitalism on how it was meant to function rather than using some dystopian system and frame it as something like capitalism. even small creators are victims of it to the point that i can't tell if they have a stockholm syndrome the more they talk about it or that they finally found something to capitalise.
Chunk Norris ☯ 29 października 2024 o 9:28 
It depends on the context. It's probably one of the best systems is place if one likes progress.

Look around the world, places like Finland and other socialists countries might have Universal Healthcare but look at where the majority of the medical breakthroughs are coming from...the medical research it's all coming from a place that has a competitive market...America. The entire world benefits off our creations, and if we had smarter leaders those foreign countries would be paying us a premium for our greater understanding of the medical field.

And capitalism is good for raising people out of the poor-house. Capitalism makes rich people, whereas in a socialist country it's much harder to have upward mobility in economic status.
sleeps 29 października 2024 o 9:37 
Początkowo opublikowane przez Chunk Norris ☯:
It depends on the context. It's probably one of the best systems is place if one likes progress.

Look around the world, places like Finland and other socialists countries might have Universal Healthcare but look at where the majority of the medical breakthroughs are coming from...the medical research it's all coming from a place that has a competitive market...America. The entire world benefits off our creations, and if we had smarter leaders those foreign countries would be paying us a premium for our greater understanding of the medical field.

And capitalism is good for raising people out of the poor-house. Capitalism makes rich people, whereas in a socialist country it's much harder to have upward mobility in economic status.
those scandies are practically very capitalist. they just happened to have very good social programs.
GunsForBucks 29 października 2024 o 10:23 
As long as it works properly and for the people it is the best.

But you need a healthy competitive market to avoid monopolies that will try to control it all for a few.

This is basically the bad thing that happened to America letting Corporations become people and Trickle down economics.. this has strangled out the middle class over time.

But capitalism is what makes for people striving to improve their situations by making more money. It spurs creativity as people can see if they do something they can profit from it.

In the modern age where they are trying to destroy ownership they are destroying the healthy freemarket.

The age of the American ideal from the 50's to the 70's when we went to the moon and created computers and the internet has been killed by corporate greed.
Dialectical Femboism 29 października 2024 o 15:04 
Początkowo opublikowane przez sleeps:
Początkowo opublikowane przez Ulfrinn:

Wouldn't really be so easy if big business didn't get the breaks, grants, and exemptions that small businesses don't. Case in point "too big to fail" where the government decided some corporations had more of a right to exist than others. And for the record, that isn't capitalism once government starts picking winners and losers. It's fascism by Mussolini's definition, on it's way to socialism.
when people say that fallout is "anti capitalist", i know ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ happens. I'm no lore buff but i dig to the lore long enough to conclude that the kind of America they have is fascist. plus, it's still anti war

Fallout criticizes American exceptionalism. Given that capitalism is so engrained in American culture, it is also criticized as a natural extension. To be fair though, Marxism-Leninism is partially criticized as well. But since Fallout is based in the U.S., it will naturally have more criticism towards capitalism. New Vegas takes this a step further and blantantly criticizes both fascism and capitalism. Interestingly enough though, Fallout tends to praise systems like anarcho-communism (in the positive portrayal of groups like the Followers of the Apocalypse) and communalism (in the Minutemen, who contrary to popular belief don't have much in common with a traditional liberatarian state).
Chaosolous 29 października 2024 o 15:11 
With proper regulation.

Then again, that could be said about most systems.

Just assume that anything people invent will be flawed because people invented it.
tallgeese 29 października 2024 o 15:12 
Początkowo opublikowane przez michaelplehner:
Over 10 million border crossings in a very small time frame says it must be good. They sure as hell didn't go to Canada.
They probably did. They don't want the stench of MAGA to stain them.
xDDD 29 października 2024 o 15:20 
Capitalism is great and has made life a lot easier/better and lifted the most people out of poverty.
BUT too much of a good thing can be bad. Crony Capitalism is objectively bad and monopolies are bad. The US needs to do a lot more to break up monopolies and it needs to stop bailing out massive failing companies.

At the moment they are trying to break up Google, or at least implement some measures against them. AFAIK it is mostly the Dems trying to that, so hopefully Google continues to piss off the right so we can get bipartisan support on that one.
its preety bad ngl, billionares shouldnt exist and global warming is bad
kingjames488 29 października 2024 o 15:49 
Początkowo opublikowane przez many ciggies:
its preety bad ngl, billionares shouldnt exist and global warming is bad
I thought it was all supposed to be smooth sailing once we gave up our rights to stop the terrorists?!

do you mean to tell me that there's another threat to mankind and the man wants us to be kind and give up even more rights and freedoms?!
Ostatnio edytowany przez: kingjames488; 29 października 2024 o 15:50
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Wszystkie dyskusje > Fora Steam > Off Topic > Szczegóły wątku
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